Not All Messianic Jews Proselytize; Yet Even Saying That One Is Messianic Gets Accusations of Such Proselytizing Intent....

For example, you can see that all I'm doing is even asking Shani to consider Messianic Judaism only when he brings up, among other things, "Personally, without scholars like Levine, attempting, out of curiously, to read the Greek scriptures has been bad for my blood pressure." As for Adam Kratt, I don't even come in and say or anything to him. He comes in as an Antimissionary macher with a clear persecutory agenda.


Sadly, one can't even disclose that he or she is a Messianic Jew without the intent to proselytize (and with the intent to do quite the opposite-- that is, let each fellow Jew believe as he or she will not proselytize

This annotated N.T. is likely to be little more than multi-colored higher criticism. A more useful tool for gaining understanding of the N.T. is by David H. Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary. It is the companion to His Jewish New Testament. His comments are clear and well grounded doctrinally. If someone wants to grasp the core of the N.T. with Hebraic background and sound exposition, read Stern’s work. You will not be disappointed!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 11/26/11 at 7:55 pm

So glad “pastor phil” infiltrates a Jewish paper with the promotion of material attempting to convert Jews to Christianity.  From Wikipedia: Stern lives in Jerusalem and is active in Israel’s Messianic Jewish community.

Pastor Phil, if you had any guts you’d be promoting Christianity to Muslims - course if you did that you might very well end up being stoned to death along with a bunch of raped women and gays.

Comment by george on 11/27/11 at 11:57 pm

Dear “george”: It is refreshing to see you confirm your vitriol in public. David Stern happens to understand the Scriptures. The tone of your comment reflects the hardness of your heart since you have made your comment personal. This shows that you do not follow Scripture. We are called to love our neighbor. Yes? My heart is for Israel, all Jews, & Jerusalem. In my ministry I constantly defend the Biblical authority for Israel to be the land. Anyone who reads and grasps the Truth in G-d’s word knows this is beyond question. Your suggestion that I have infiltrated is fallacious. You have not heard of “God fearers”? If you understand higher criticism, you might agree with the overall concern for valid hermeneutics. People can read Stern’s work and decide on their own. I convert no one. This is G-d’s domain alone. Faithful reading of Scripture is part of this as noted in the first psalm. Now, if I didn’t have “guts,” I would have left “Pastor” off of the post. So, you have erred again. Muslims have major problems. This is well known. I deal with Islam constantly. I have noted that some of them have better ears than you….  Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 11/28/11 at 10:00 am

It is beyond dispute that Christianity contains a lot of Jewish stuff, much of it unrecognizable to both Jews and gentiles as filtered through Roman and other later lenses. A scholarly Jewish perspective would provide a badly needed reality check in this regard, particularly since every Christian movement and offshoot attempts to laim greater authenticiy and attachment to Jewish origins.

Of course the limitiation on the ‘Jewish roots’ approach inevitably founders on those deal-breakers which have not changed since the first century, but as long as the discussion is confined to the New Testament nobody needs to get upset.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 11/28/11 at 11:18 am

Damned right this is personal, “pastor”.  I despise your 2,000 year history of trying to convert Jews to Christianity.  Your cult (you are to Judaism as Mormonism is to Christianity) has caused the death of millions of Jews.  And you have the audacity to come here and try to promote Christianity and Messianic “Jews”. You are from a long line of anti - Jews - at times you and your ilk have used Murder, at times Social Pressure, at times Slimy words of “Love” - but the bottom line of all you and yours tactics is to steal Jewish souls.  You, the Nazis, the Popes who promoted murder of Jews during the crusades, the Orthodox Christians who used pogroms to kill Jews, Martin Luther King who used the most blood lust inducing language about the Jews, all had one goal - to eradicate Jews and Judaism, either by murder or conversion.

Comment by george on 11/28/11 at 12:26 pm

Thank you, Ben. You are absolutely right. Both Jews & Gentiles need to be educated, since much has been culturized. Rome and others are responsible, having affected the thinking and interpretation of far too many. The Scriptures themselves speak loudly, proclaiming Truth, if we would read it. Psalm 19 offers evidence of this, and more prominently, Psalm 119. It is unfortunate that much animosity remains on the side of Judaism and Christianity. There is correction needed for both. When voices rail—and do not reason with G-d—as expressed in Isiah 1:18, then hostile reaction occurs which closes all dialogue. No one will ever eradicate Jews or Judaism. We can listen to other folks speak and they will tell us who they are: “out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.” Have a great day, Ben!!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 11/28/11 at 3:59 pm

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George, as a Messianic Jew, I equally thought of Davif H. Stern’s translation. I am open about my faith, but not here to proselytize; so if you want to disagree that the historical Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, that’s your schtick. However, please respect Jews and gentiles who believe in a historical Jewish figure as the Jewish Messiah.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/08/11 at 5:24 pm

Pastor Phil, Dr. Levine actually said reading the New Testament affects her to be a better Jew. So, whatever criticism there is may merely come from a “I don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah perse” perspective. As for the Magi, my understanding is that the Magi (per the “magos” footnote) were probably merely astronomers or astrologers who had an ‘Ein Dor-type experience and converted to merely astronomy.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/08/11 at 5:29 pm

Pastor Phil, Stern’s “Jewish”(Messianic/Christian)New Testament “translation”,is described by Stern himself as a work with “cosmetic” changes,such as avoiding the use of biblical Greek proper nouns in order to replace them with transliterated Hebrew words.In addition,his book calls “law” “Torah legalism”, etc. That’s NOT intellectually honest translating;it sounds more like re-wording.The Jewish Annotated New Testament is a book of essays written to explore the ancient Jewish cultures that produced the concepts/ideas that are contained in Greek biblical texts. It’s an attempt to allow readers to gain perspective on how two very different religions share some scriptures, but, obviously, not all scriptures.It also illustrates how Greek culture melded its own beliefs and practices with these concepts, leading to pagan interpolation.  The NRSV (as ecumenical a translation as Christianity has thus far been able to produce)is used to source Greek scripture.Any Christian who wants to “follow” honestly whatever Jesus may have been teaching should ignore the fantasies of the likes of Tolkein and Lewis, and, instead, study 1st Century CE Jewish philosophy and history. Current Christianity developed from “church fathers” parallel to current Judaism growing from teachings of rabbis and sages. Early Church writings are often the polar opposites of Judaism in their obsessive hatred of humanity and attempts to transcend life mystically; they are far, far removed from the scriptures of which they claim secret and exclusive knowledge.

Comment by Shani on 12/08/11 at 9:40 pm

Gaining more insight into the development of Greek scriptures can be interesting for Christian people, and possibly, it might enrich their beliefs.Jewish perspective undoubtedly can shed insight into some passages and concepts that Christians admit they don’t understand. Regardless of the blights of history, (not to mention how awful it would be to repeat them),and the differences in Jewish and Christian texts/worldviews, both Hebrew and Greek scriptures could best serve any human belief system with their humanity-preserving messages, and their insistence that all of creation is important. All can hope to be good once more.

Comment by Shani on 12/08/11 at 10:02 pm

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The Levite Line, I find said that you no longer consider yourself a Jew. As you and I, being Jewish believers, well know, most of our people are in a time where the veil has yet to be lifted and where Moshe is not understood because of the unlifted veil. Don’t let the Antimissionaries and other Non-Messianic Jews who are intolerant of Messianic Jews and Biblical Christianity get to you.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/10/11 at 12:02 pm

Thank you, Shani and others for your comments. This post has become more than interesting. David Stern’s work is a viable tool to help readers become more comfortable with the New testament. Other translations may also help, but his notes contain elements from Judaism which are lacking in many other works. It is a reasonable help, since it is not essays about the Scripture; it is Scripture plus notes/comments. Philosophy has it s place, as do the efforts of other literary notables (you mention C.S. Lewis). The 1st century Jewish philosophers have their points, but like the Christian writers then and later, they fall short of the text itself. The Scripture states itself to be what is of primary importance (as in Psalm 1; Psalm 119, etc.). There is no substitute for what Moses set in writing or the prophets who followed. If we spent more time just pondering their words (i.e., Isaiah 1:18), then many of the difficulties we face at the moment would recede. Too many of us see through a glass dimly. As once said, “It is amazing how much light the Bible sheds on the commentaries.” Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 12/10/11 at 4:17 pm

Pastor Phil, Levine & Brettler’s book does contain the the Greek Bible in the NRSV translation, with ample commentary. I did not meant to sound dismissive entirely of Lewis, etc. but I have encountered many Christian scholars who form their understanding of Christian text through philosophers who neatly fit their concepts of Christianity into their ancestral mythologies. Everything become King Arthur, and heroes, and the return of the king.They tended to ignore or disparage Jewish historical viewpoints, making even detailed translations linguistically inaccurate. Cultural connotation is often impossible to communicate with translation.From what I can tell, Levine & Brettler are fair in their publications.Of course, “pondering” scripture is worthwhile, but it can also be the straight route to seeing through a glass darkly (through a personal lens).Scholars are trying to move beyond the 19th century European approach to biblical studies. Seriously, Pastor Phil,you cannot think it’s easy for Jews to pick up the Christian Bible at all, let alone be “comfortable” with a translation. Personally, without scholars like Levine, attempting, out of curiously, to read the Greek scriptures has been bad for my blood pressure.

Comment by Shani on 12/10/11 at 5:40 pm

Shani, for very-well-done studies from a Jewish viewpoint on the inherently-Jewish nature of Christianity and aspects thereof, I suggest that you check out the website for K’lal Yeshu’at Yisra’el (in English, Congregation Yeshuat Yisrael)in Franklin, Tennessee. Also closely read Dr. David Stern’s translation more thoroughly. The NRSV is a Roman Catholic translation and does no good. Versions like the CJB and NKJV (which I use) deliberately retain the Jewish context of the original-language Tanakh and B’rit Chadashah.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/10/11 at 6:48 pm

Thank you Nickidewbear, I will certainly look into your suggestions for my reading! Back to the original topic, I believe Dr. Stern’s contributions to learning within the scholarly community of biblical studies are valuable.I’m not familiar with his “New Testament”,but, unlike Pastor Phil, I don’t believe it should be read “instead” of this work by Levine and Brettler. (Read them both - why not?) The NRSV was commissioned by the National Council of Churches, and it is deliberately ecumenical.My Rabbi has it on the shelf in her office. There is a Catholic Vulgate edition, but it’s not used by Levine & Brettler in their Annotated Jewish NT. The New Oxford Annotated Bible NRSV (regular edition) has major contributions from Marc Zvi Brettler and Amy-Jill Levine. For studies,I use the JPS TANAKH, edited by Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler and JPS Hebrew-English.

Comment by Shani on 12/10/11 at 7:33 pm

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The Levite Line, you claim (among other allegations), “[W]hen people tell them what they don’t like or hate about them they just call people names.  Ie. Anti-Semite.” This is not true of all (fellow) Jews, Messianic and Non Messianic. In fact, for example, I believe that Philista (based on Tanakh) still has an existing people (the Palestinians)and that the “wodka” ad with “Hanukkah pricing” was calling us Jews “generous”, not “cheap”.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/11/11 at 9:38 pm

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Hi, Shani: Thank you for your comments. You are right. I do not think it is easy for Jews to pick up the “Christian Bible.” This is why I commented the way I did. But, please remember that it is not easy for a Gentile or a “christian” either. Most have been raised in or affected by the culture which is at large anti-G-d. The popular culture would like to remove the shadow of Truth from the Judeo-Christian influence. The Scriptures, whether the Tanakh or the N.T., are an offense to them. The result is that many folks have only a passing knowledge of what the Bible really says and then have the nerve to use it against us by saying, “judge not,” etc. I am a strong advocate of Bible reading. Too many people do not have time for that, which means they have no time for G-d. This is the whole problem. I do not favor the tweaked scholarship or the popular nonsense that has found a home in much of “christianity.” It merely continues the deception that it is another life choice, just a different moral platform. The scriptures go beyond that, especially as found in Isaiah’s writing as he warned us about being so far from G-d. Jeremiah, too, well documented the conditions in his day which face us at the present hour. We do not need added “oomments” from some expert to see that. The Scripture itself is very clear. This, again, is why the reading and “reasoning” with G-d are so important. All of the prophets tells us we have forgotten G-d. My message is simple: come back. As He said, “return to me; return to me even now”! Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 12/12/11 at 7:02 pm

Pastor Phil, I’ve gained perspective on this issue. Thank you.I’ve often wondered if observant Christians are ever uncomfortable with their own scripture, because I’ve heard verses that are so exclusionary. I read your initial comment here as a cagey attempt at missionizing,and I apologize to you for my insinuation. Very narrow-minded of me, to say the least. Some of my (mis?)understanding of Christianity has emerged from media depiction (often caricature), and that’s unfair of me, and, quite frankly, ignorant. Perhaps that’s why the works of scholars like Levine are appealing to me.I know G_d never left us, and never will! Shalom shalom.

Comment by Shani on 12/13/11 at 3:29 pm

Shani; while G-d will never leave or forsake ‘Am Yisra’el, a couple of the “exclusionary” points are important to raise: 1) Jews must either be shomrim-kol hamitzvot or accept hachen b’Yeshua. 2) Ru’ach HaKodesh will not dwell with bnei-‘Adam forever, as noted in Beresheet. 3) Conditions—be they mitzvot v’b'rit milah, or rachamim v’chen—have always applied to be m’Yisra’el. So, there are discomforts in Judaism (including Messianic Judaism) that are worth thinking about.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/13/11 at 5:44 pm

Nickidewbear, are you being ironic? If not, your comment shows perfect examples of the type of assertions that inspired Levine & Brettler to investigate the Greek texts, and provide context and broader perspective.

Comment by Shani on 12/13/11 at 8:53 pm

Shani, both the Hebrew and Greek texts say & imply that, as I said: 1) Jews must either be shomrim-kol hamitzvot or accept hachen b’Yeshua. 2) Ru’ach HaKodesh will not dwell with bnei-‘Adam forever, as noted in Beresheet. 3) Conditions—be they mitzvot v’b’rit milah, or rachamim v’chen—have always applied to be m’Yisra’el. So, there are discomforts in Judaism (including Messianic Judaism) that are worth thinking about.

So, I’m just asking you to consider what I say. I’m not proselytizing, just giving you what the texts themselves in their own contexts say.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/14/11 at 6:31 am

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This is really b’nefesh l’Hanukkah, ishim… lo!

Comment by Nicole Czarnecki on 12/17/11 at 4:34 pm

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theleviteline wrote:“However, I do not respect you ugly 4-eyed, blue-eyed, obese, scrawny, bald-headed, physically and mentally diseased people enough to seek your approval.” and “Hence I don’t wait for the Jewish egomanical leaders to do anything but mislead, misinform and misguide.  How else could 6 million end up in gas chambers?” etc.

Why is this anti-semitic vitriol tolerated at The JEWISH Journal?

Comment by JustDroppedBy on 12/19/11 at 3:25 pm

JustDroppedBy, I have no idea. But the “Jewish Journal” is going el She’ol fastly.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/19/11 at 3:27 pm

Why do we Jews need to learn about a fairy tale book about a person that there is no historical proof ever even existed?

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/20/11 at 10:25 am

In response to JustDroppedBy I guess his philosophy and the many like him, is to suppress harsh critical words.  This way when you end up burned alive or gassed to death or whatever lovely end will be next for the Jews, you can be as clueless as your forebears.  Maybe this way it hurts less and it’s over quickly.  Unless you survive years in a concentration camp.  Of course having 1.5 million of your children gassed and burned alive, oh well just another blip on the screen. 

It would be laughable except I KNOW that folks like JustDroppedBy are and have been listened to and voices like mine are labelled and dismissed.  However the possibility that I’d been categorized with and stuck anywhere with the many creeps like JustDroppedBy is unfathomable and unacceptable to me.

The continued and willful ignorance of the story of Jesus, a Jew, by the Jewish masses is just one of the many inexcusable if not most inexcusable aspects of Jewish life.  Mr. Kratt seems to echo this attitude, first with the “we Jews” and referring to the Jesus story as a fairy tale.  Why should the Moses story be any less of a fairytale then?  However I do NOT wish to debate with these completely closed minded and willfully ignorant people at all.

As Jesus might have said, ‘Happy Hanukkah’ (see John 10:22-23).

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/20/11 at 11:56 am

Oy vey!!! Why the hate?  I stumbled upon the Jewish Journal website and this blog posting when doing a google search for all things Hannukah in LA.  I am absolutely mortified by some of these comments.  I come from one Jewish parent, one Christian parent and I embrace and respect both religions.  George, in particular - are you outta your mind?  I pity your twisted sense of reality.
I am so regretful that I even read these comments, they’ve ruined my day!!!
Why can’t we all just get along?

Comment by Assilem Berg on 12/20/11 at 12:14 pm

Adam Kratt, Jesus of Nazareth did exist.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/20/11 at 12:54 pm

@ Nickidewbear, There is NO historical evidence that a Jesus of Nazareth. ALL evidence points that the city of Nazareth did not even exist until the 1st century after the alleged time that Jesus supposedly existed. There is NO mention of any Jesus of Nazareth in Roman, Jewish or Greek documents of the time. The ONLY evidence of Jesus are books (Christian Bible) which was written between 300 and 400 years after his supposedly lived.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/20/11 at 9:22 pm

Happy Hanukkah to all.
Where did any commenter say that Jews don’t learn from Christians? (An accusation made here?) The comments are in response to an article about a Jewish publication by scholars who have dedicated their careers to learning about a foreign religion. Clearly, their intent was “to learn”...and to teach. Where is the “willful ignorance”? Why would anyone “willfully” ignored even read this article?  Answer: No one “willfully” would. Did the accuser READ the article? How can no one else have reacted to the horrible name calling?  “Brain dead”? “Twisted Ashkenazi way?” “ugly 4-eyed, blue-eyed, obese, scrawny, bald-headed, physically and mentally diseased people”??
Why does a White Supremacist get to spew his hate and insanely rant, and no one else has called him on it, or moderated??

Comment by JustDroppedBy on 12/20/11 at 9:50 pm

leviteline wrote the following quotes: “The physical ugliness of so many Orthodox Jews is a reflection of their inner ugliness, I have concluded.”
“I’ve joined the other side and I’ll depend upon them to protect me from the likes of you horrible excuses for human life, most of you Orthodox creeps.”
“To read the Torah (5 written books of Moses) and the prophets and not even question, never mind answer and comprehend who Israel is, is again completely inexcusable.  God damn you for this and I believe He has and will continue to do so.  I hope He does, you deserve it.”

Members of Hate Groups should NOT be given voice or attention in this publication. No one needs the abuse, and it doesn’t deserve attention.  Readers can drop by because something interesting caught their eye, and then read such hottible comments and feel polluted.  It’s horribly depressing, and the threat of hate crimes hangs over our heads continually.  This poster isn’t kidding around - he’s making vicious accusations because the world isn’t what he thinks he wants to it be. I sincerely hope this publication is keeping record of these insults and degrading, hateful comments.

Comment by JustDroppedBy on 12/21/11 at 1:05 am

The only reason for a Jew to read the fantasy comic book called the “new testament” is to disprove it. I would suggest that any Jew who reads about the sorcery and corruptions written about in the Christian text that they become proficient in and knowledgeable regarding their mistranslated verses. There are several Jewish websites that are dedicated to countering the missionaries. All Jews should be prepared to show How the “new” testament is easily debunked and is based on lies and mistranslations of Tanach

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 6:24 am

Adam Kratt, mashpikh. This is not an Antimissionary nor proselytization website.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/21/11 at 12:59 pm

This is a Jewish website for Jews. Christians should be responding and posting their foreign pagan ideas.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 3:30 pm

@ theleviteline: I have read your website. Your ignorance on the subject is evident. First off the Levites are not Aaronic priests. While the priests do come from the tribe of Levi, not all Levites (Levyim) are priests. Only the direct decedents of Aaron are priests and are called Kohaynim. I also read your founders Bio. It is obvious he had mental disorders.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 3:41 pm

I’m asking the Jewish Journal to not welcome Adam Kratt or theleviteline.com here anymore.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/21/11 at 4:29 pm

What did Adam Kratt do that was dangerous or inappropriate?

Nickidewbear, I can’t believe you would find something offensive in Adam Kratt’s posts, but you’ve written nothing about the vile, offensive, cruel name-calling by the poster that wouldn’t know a Levite if one fell out of the sky and squished him!

Comment by Shani on 12/21/11 at 4:56 pm

@ Nickidewbear: Really? You are asking the Jewish Journal to ban me, a Jew, for expressing Jewish ideals because you, a gentile, are offended?

@ Shani: Thank you, while I understand that views I express aren’t the most politically correct. We as Jews need to stand up and defend our faith and our Torah.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 6:22 pm

Shani, I asked that theleviteline.com be not welcome here anymore and I told him that he’s still a Jew even if he’d like to pretend differently. Also, I asked if the “Jewish Journal” is going downhill because they allow comments like his. Adam, the point of this blog isn’t Antimissionarism. And Shani, you know as well as I do (and I sadly had to clarify in another post) that I am not here to proselytize or convert but only to disclose that I am Messianic before I get persecuted for such and accused of proselytization.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/21/11 at 6:46 pm