Okay; So "Momma" Says The Following A Little Late On Reilly's Behalf. Still...

PS Yes; "Momma" has told Reilly about her adoptive (and "Momma"'s own biological) roots. Also, Google Translate is a handy tool 🙂. By the way, notice how four of the American flag's stars connect, and one can highlight the colors of Poland's flag in various places—thus, how Polish Jews and Poles can be highlighted as an essential part of America's fabric.

Cry, Cry, "Recall the Fifth Of July!"

On a Thursday, July 5th 73 years ago today, these two men were part of an uprising that is overlooked by historians and others alike: these two, Franciszek and Witold Andrulewicz, were part of the Augustów Resistance. They didn't have to fight the invading Soviets. They did. Why?

Why they didn't have to do it and why they did it are on the one in the same (and I can tell you that the sides of our family back in Europe were aware of it, no matter denials, etc. on all sides now): they were B'nei Anusim whom had seen it before, and they were not going to see it again, even if they had to die to try to make sure that nobody else would see it—and they did die.

Even if Holocaust historians and others overlook the Russian part of the Holocaust, I won't. Even if Holocaust historians and others don't consider the time from Stalin's reign to the closing of the gulags as part of the Holocaust, I will. Even if the Augustów Resistance isn't remembered even much in Poland—let alone as much as other defenses that Jewish and other partisans undertook—I will remember it.

אפריים בן אביגדור (פרנטישק בן וינצנטי) ופעידל בן יוסף (ויטולד בן יוסף), זיכרונם לברכה; וכל אחרים קדושים באוגוסטוב, זיכרונם לברכה

As Submitted To "The Atlantic": My Great-Grandfather Czarnecki Was a DREAMer Of His Day

Without Donald Trump flagrantly attempting to end "DACA", many DREAMers could live lives comparable to what my great-grandfather—given his circumstances—lived. With Donald Trump attempting to end "DACA", many DREAMers are figuratively—and in some cases, literally—facing down barrels of guns. In my great-grandfather's case, it was literal—his parents and he became Anusim to survive the pogroms, and this effectively caused my family (including his paternal grandmother, whom returned to Judaism as soon as she could return to Judaism) to disown them.

    Great-Granddad was born a Czerniecki (Chernetski) in Tsuman, Ukraine (then Cumań, Wołyń in the Russian Pale) when his mother went to visit a cousin in Buzhanka in the Zvenyhorodka (Zvenigorodka) vicinity; and the only reason that his mother could travel back and forth between Zvenyhorodka and Lipsk nad Biebrzą (where they lived) is because Lipsk nad Biebrzą was in the Congress Poland part of Suwałki Gubernia. How his maternal grandparents left Stakliškės for Bosse, by the way, I'll never know: all I know is that a Morgovich relative of his maternal grandmother (a Margiewicz) died of tuberculosis on April 4, 1882, and they already had relatives (including ones whom were Anusim) in Suwałki Gubernia when his mother was born on June 26, 1882.

    Speaking of "June 26, 1882", that was one of the very-few pieces of information that checked out on his father's naturalization applications—and he gave quite a bit of false information on them and other records, including . Finding the record for that Morgovich cousin (Shmuil Morgovich, z"l) and other records (and by having to use methods such as to reconciling any contradictory information on the various records) was what helped me figure out what information did check out and what information didn't check out. As for the information that didn't check out, Great-Granddad would've been deported back to Lipsk with his parents because of it had it been found out to be information that didn't check out—and Great-Great-Granddad knew fully well what he was doing in the instances when he lied—and despite being a Jewish farmer-turned-Crypto-Jewish-coal miner whom didn't have much of what we'd call schooling, he was smart enough to know that lying on official records and lying to compilers of official records (e.g., enumerators of Census records) was (and is) a felony that could (and can) get even a naturalized citizen considered to be a deportable illegal immigrant (and he had already tried to enter the country as "Julian Laczinsky" whom was headed to New Jersey. He was lucky that he as "Julian Zernetzky" whom was headed to Sugar Notch was not caught as being an illegal immigrant).

    What helped save my great-grandfather (and subsequently his descendants) is that my great-grandmother was born here (technically as what one would call an "anchor baby", since her parents weren't fully honest on their records, either). Had he not married my great-grandmother, he would've been deported even if his father (whom died in 1922) was posthumously caught (and if his mother, whom wasn't always honest on her records, either, was even posthumously caught); and he married Great-Grandma Czarnecki (supposedly) on May 10, 1934 (even though the marriage license was never signed. I'm pretty sure that they probably had a secret Jewish wedding somewhere.), and this was after "United States v. Wong Kim Ark (and she was born to parents whom were Anusim and B'nei Anusim, and each of them had immigrated from Austria Hungary to New Jersey and then Ashley, Pennsylvania, where she was born).

    As a descendant of a DREAMer equivalent and as a Fourth- and Fifth-Generation Pogrom Survivor, then, I'm speaking out for the DREAMers whom face figurative death and may face literal death if Trump fully gets his way—and by the way, both Great-Granddad and Great-Grandma subsequently lost relatives in the German part of the Holocaust (1933-1945) and the Russian part of the Holocaust (1922-1960; and some of the relatives in Russia died at the Augustow Resistance on July 5, 1945 and in the gulags—also by the way, that Stalin had his own "Final Solution" plan is now known, and the gulags did not close until seven years after Stalin's death. 

PS As for after the Holocaust in Europe:

1. One of Great-Grandma's uncles, Ǎǔgǔstinǔs Samuel Mǔnka, died in 1949 as a result of the Holocaust affecting him—by the way, "Munk", "Munka", and variants thereof are exclusively Jewish in Eastern Europe.
2. One of Great-Granddad's relatives died in 1970 as a result of his health being affected by his constantly having to flee the Nazis and the Soviets in Lithuania.

    Thus, my DREAMer and Non-DREAMer [family] (as the saying goes) saw it and [have] seen it before, and we know what "Never again" means for anybody and everybody—including DREAMers, at least quite a few of whom (I'm sure) are Sephardic Anusim and B'nei Anusim whom can trace their ancestry back to Anusim and B'nei Anusim in Colonial Spain and Colonial Portugal, and Ashkenazi Anusim and B'nei Anusim like my family whom aren't Jewish enough in the eyes of the Haredim to be allowed to make aliyah

PS Eric Trump's recent comments about his father's "depression" insult those like my great-grandfather—whom really did have Depression and committed suicide as a result of having Depression—and me, since I inherited the Depression partly from my paternal grandfather, whom was one of the ancestors whom passed it on to my father (and at least one other ancestor from whom we inherit Depression also committed suicide)

Excerpt From My Upcoming Book: It Began In the Toponymical City of Dunilavičy

I don’t know how I didn’t know other than that I wasn’t told that I’m Jewish—let alone the whole backstory behind why we passed for gentiles. What I do know is that I should’ve known when someone asked me if I am—that is, if I am related to Kirk Douglas. I honestly remembered that “Danilovich” was a patronymic in his case, and I told the person that “Danilovich” is a patronymic in his case and not related to “Daniłowicz” in my paternal family’s case.

Then I relooked at the Wikipedia entry—“Demsky” wasn’t his birth surname after all, as I found out. After that, I saw the family resemblance—and the “Czarnecki buttchin” turned out to be the Danilovich-dimpled chin, I figured out. Then after that, I read about how Kirk Douglas raped Natalie Wood—and I should’ve known that I’m related to Kirk Douglas even if I’d only read about that.

Leave to the Daniloviches to wreak havoc on the world—and my own side of the family had and has done plenty of that—and each other—and even many (if not most) of us that try to be good aren’t innocent of having wreaked some havoc. We also have havoc wreaked on us by others besides each other—as I say, “If you’re a Danilovich, you either are trouble, attract trouble, or [have a case of] both[instances —that is, that you both are trouble and attract trouble].” (By the way, I used to say “crazy” instead of “trouble”, but then I considered how “crazy” is ableist language.)

Meanwhile, as I’ve also said, there’s something in that Danilovich water—and it all (apparently, anyway) began in Dunilavičy, Belarus (Duniłowicze, Białorus), to where I’ve traced it back (thus, why I say “apparently”: it could be Daniłowicze in what is now Podlaskie, Poland or another Daniłowicze or Dunilavičy).

Using JewishGen and Google Maps as well as other sources (including YadVashem, since I ended up finding—for example—a record for an Esther Chernetzki from Chausy—the birth city of Herschel “Harry” Danilovich), I’ve traced my Danilovich/Daniłowicz from Dunilavičy to Podlaskie, Poland’s Lipsk nad Bierbzą as such—this is, for all intents and purposes, a very-rough tracing, by the way. Also by the way, keep factors such as the following (and I think that you can tell that I’ve researched all of this and also figured out quite a bit):

1.    There was no traveling outside of the Russian Pale and back to it without permission to be outside of the Russian Pale in the first place.

2.    Per JewishGen, Lipsk shifted from being in Borisov Uyezd in Minsk Gubernia to Augustów Uyezd in Suwałki Gubernia by 1900.

3.    The shift from being openly Jewish to being Anusim seems to have come from Abram “Wojciech” and Marianna Kruszyńska Daniłowicz when a son named Mendel died in Filipów in 1841. Their daughter who was the mother of my paternal grandfather’s paternal grandfather was baptized as “Katarzyna” in 1843.

4.    In Wigry its subordinate parish, no way was “prenuptial agreement” going to mean anything but “ketubah”. Also in Wigry and its subordinate parish, parents didn’t “neglect” baptizing any child for four years!

5.    The Daniloviches, Chernetzkis, etc. (e.g., Kruszyńskis, Andrulewiczes, and Margiewiczes) all either somehow heard of each otherand/or were otherwise connected prior to ending up in what is now Podlaskie Voivodeship.

6.    Related to the aforementioned: branches of the Daniloviches, etc. also ended up together in Mount Carmel, Pennsylvania—in other words, Great-Granddad Czarnecki’s closer sides of his parents’ families that immigrated to Pennsylvania stuck together.

[Not previewed here]

The next few screenshots are from JewishGen. As I’ve said when I’ve written about my family history other times, they—despite what they claim—cannot copyright the information itself, although they can indeed copyright the database technology that they use for the JewishGen databases. Besides, that information was known and/or discoverable long before they were founded—let alone before I was born!

[Not previewed here]

As for the rest of my Danilovich side’s story, that can be read elsewhere. So can the story of Kirk Douglas’ side.

PS As I’ve said, I wish that Lana Wood would name Kirk Douglas before he dies—and I wish that she would name Kirk Douglas before it’s too late for her to name her sister’s rapist!

A Massacre In Sweden Really Did Occur, As It Happened In Bowling Green. Guess Who Really Caused It?

1. Tr*** himself—bowling over massacring any liberty and freedom is dangerously making people 🤢.
2. Tr***'s offical and unofficial cabinet, including his family.
3. Tr***ites from Milo to Newt Gingrich.

There are others whom caused Tr***'s Bowling Green Massacre, including pro-Trump and Anti-Zionist Benjamin Netanyahu—Agudat Yisrael's "natural partner". Meanwhile, not just the U.S., Sweden, and Israel are suffering—so are, e.g., Poland, the Ukraine and Crimea, and Slovakia, all of where substantial kehillot still exist. 

Will Great-Granduncle Bernie Ever Rest In Peace? At Least Until He Gets A Purple Heart...

Great-Granduncle Bernie won't ever rest in peace as the hero that he is. Granted that I've written about Great-Granduncle Bernie before, though today's Memorial Day and a post-Holocaust victim of the Holocaust still goes unacknowledged:

Bernard Stanley Czarnecki (Benyamin Shmarya Tshernyetski ben Yehudah-Yochanahn Efryaim v'Sara Osnat, z"l) was born on March 15, 1920 to Julian John Felix (Yehudah-Yochanahn Efryaim ben Chananiah v'Sarah, z"l) and Alexandria Alice (Osnat Sarah bat Yosef HaKohen v'Sarah, z"l).

Born into a Anusi family, he was born into a family whom posed as Polish-Lithuanian Catholics in order to avoid Anti Semitism in America after the first three members (including his brother Anthony) emigrated from Poland Russia after becoming Anusim to avoid Anti Semitism there and, thus, estranging their openly-Jewish family. When Bernard "Bernie" Czarnecki became of bar-mitzvah age, part of why his parents had become Anusim was becoming clearer every day in especially Germany and the Soviet Union: the brutal and ethnocidal Anti Semitism that had permeated pogrom-riddled Russia was on an extreme resurgence. Only under a year into his adulthood (since his 20th birthday was March 15, 1940), he would enlist in the U.S. Army 111th Infantry Division Medical Corps.

Receiving a head wound due to shrapnel that hit him during combat, Pfc. Bernard S. Czarnecki had a failed operation to remove the shrapnel and was discharged from the Army on December 12, 1945. Not really being able to live at home (despite what his exploitative brothers John "Jankie" and Joseph "Susi" stated), Pfc. Czarnecki lived at the Lebanon, PA Veterans' Home And Hospital. When he died on July 16, 1963, his brothers Jankie and Susi received his Social Security benefits, which they tricked him into giving him because of his childlike condition that the shrapnel wound and botched operation effected—since he was vulnerable and easily trusting, thus able to be tricked as a child can be.

While "[i]t's a shame what [Jankie and Susi] did to Bernie," even more of a shame is that the United States never gave Pfc. Bernard Stanley Czarnecki the Purple Heart that he deserved, even posthumously. Also a shame is the shanda fur di goyim that Pfc. Bernard S. Czarnecki (WW2, DOW) was never recognized as a post-Holocaust victim of the Holocaust, despite that he died of his wounds and took almost 18 agonizing years to die.

בנימין שמריה צהרנצקי בן יהודה-יוחנן אפרים ואסנת שרה, ונכד של חנניא ושרה צהרנצקי ויוסף הכוהן ושרה  אנדרולוביץ (ז''ל, תרע''ט-תשכ''ג)

On the 71st Anniversary Of the Liberation Of Jews From Auschwitz And Other Murder Camps, I Remember The Life Of...

My distant cousin✡ Antoni Andrulewicz (אנתוני בן יוחנן הכוהן אנדרולוביץ, ז''ל והי''ד).

When I was doing more family research, I found out about him (and found this picture) and read about the horrid circumstances of his death.

According to what Ogrodywspomnien.pl cited, he was "arrested" (read "kidnapped"), "held hostage in the Suwalki prison" for almost three months, and murdered by asphyxiation with other victims of a "mass execution" (read, quite frankly, "mass lynching"), and put into a mass grave at the murder site.

Remember that not all Sho'ah victims fit the profile of the oft-described Sho'ah victim—and certainly, not all lived to be victims whom became liberated survivors. Because he was a ben Anusim, he (like other bnei Anusim in Non-Hispanic Europe) got overlooked (despite that Anusim and bnei Anusim were not only in Iberia and not only during the Spanish Inquisition).

As has been said, ****** didn't care whether Jews were Rabbinical, Karaite, or Non-Rabbinical and Non-Karaite Jews; and many continue to leave millions of those whom were counted for murder out of the count of those whom are to be remembered ("[B]ut for Thy sake are we killed all the day; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.").

Even 71 years later, only 6-11 Million victims of the Sho'ah (not counting the gentile ones) are counted and remembered for a blessing; and Stalin, despite that he had his equivalent of a "Final Solution", is remembered as part of the Yalta Three whom led the armed forces that liberated Jews from Auschwitz and other murder ("concentration") camps (and lets be clear: the "concentration" camps were not designed to be anything but murder camps).

Even 71 years later, then, Israel is still not fully liberated from the Nazis—how can Israel be fully liberated when his murdered sons and daughters are still not fully counted and what he endured in, e.g., murder camps is minimized?

לעולם לא שיכחו; לעולם לא שוב!


✡ "Andrulewicz" and variants thereof originated with "Andrulevičius" (especially "Andrulevičus") in Stakliškės (as I was told on Polish Forums). However, we also have Sephardi or Mizrachi roots, as two of our cousins were named "Kasis" (not "Kasis" as in "spit" or "Kazys" as in "Kazimierz", since that was a later renaming). As far as I can tell perAncestry.com and other sites, then, "Kasis" probably comes from "Casis", which comes with "Qisis" or "Qasis". 

As far, BTW, as why the various branches were all over the place in terms of not speaking to each other, etc., I do not know. I do know, though, that, e.g., the Andrelewitz branch in Vilna probably was done with most of us long before my branch became Anusim (Rochla bas Gitla was among the Vilna branch). 

As far as the Vil'gel'm Andrulevich branch, we last had contact with them roughly about when Great-Granddad was born in Cuman (now Tsuman), since Vil'gel'm lived in Buzhanka near Zvenigorodka (now Zvenyhorodka). Whether it was before Great-Granddad was born or after he was, I don't know. 

I've had to figure out quite a bit of this through inference, etc.. Ultimately, nonetheless, it won't change that I'm a bat-Anusim whom has a duty to make sure that even distant relatives who were Sho'ah victims aren't forgotten.

The Too-Long Comment Re Dana Horn's Article

"True, European Jewish immigrants did have to render their names into Latin or Cyrillic letters to create passports, and yes, passports were sometimes forged—but those forgeries or name changes would have been generated by the immigrants themselves. It is also true that many immigrants chose new names for themselves in America, whether for expediency or to avoid discrimination. But that was after they left Ellis Island. I am not revealing state secrets here, or arcane information. Any school child who has been on a field trip to Ellis Island knows all this. But why use facts when rumors will do?"

Yep. My paternal granddad's paternal family did this. "Czerniezka"? Who checked; and, by the way, who questioned when Alexandria "Czerniezka" listed "Katarzyna [?] Czerniezka", to whom she was not talking, as her nearest relative from whence she came (and never mind that they weren't talking after the former had become a Anusit)? (By the way, they were both Danilowiczes somehow. "Katarzyna" certainly was, as she was born a Danilowiczówna.) And on other records..."Czarnecki", "Chernetski", "Czarniecki", "Czerniecki" (the original one, apparently), "Charnetski". Something should've caught on; and, blessedly, it somehow never did (and, by the way, Great-Granddad "spoke perfect English"; and English was neither his nor his extremely-literate parents' native language, and his dad particularly knew how to get around the system. His mom was a little more honest. Still, Great-Granddad was one of those who was marked by "inaccuracies [which] were grounds for deporting improperly documented or unqualified people back to Europe". How Ellis Island, the Luzerne County Courts, etc. never caught on, I can only guess.


As for "facts when rumors will do" on the flip side: one of our surnames is "Foc(z)ko" or "seal". Whether it's a deliberate pun on "Siegel" (and I'll bet that it is), I can only guess. But my cousin (since we were Anusim who fled Poland after the Non-Anusi branch bid us farewell) gets so mad when I point out that "Focko" and "Foczko" are rare, in mainly Poland, Slovakia, and Hungary (and became "Fosko" in many cases in the U.S.); is "Focko" and "Foczko" ("Fo-ts-ko") in Polish, Slovakian (with the non-accented "c"), and Hungarian; and both the Polish and Hungarian use the word "foka" (with the only difference being the Hungarian having the "ó"), and Slovakian doesn't have that word. Also, we immigrated to Upper Hungary, the more-tolerant of the two Hungarys (not Lower Hungary), where we could pass and have Slovakized our name if we so chose (We didn't.). 


He loves to continue to buy the family tripe, which includes all this randomness/coincidences/conveniently leaving out geographical proximity and other relevant factors (e.g., that István Foczko's wife, Jána Hanzóková Foczková, was never noted to be of "hanzók"/Hanseatic descent [and if she was, that would've come out; as one of our ways of passing was to try to link ourselves to gentile notables if we could]; that her mother was a Lázárová, and that her only daughter, Julianna Foczková, was deliberately proposed to by a Levite whose parental grandparents had to be "felmentették" ["acquitted"] to marry). In doing so, he also (whether or not he realizes that he) dumbs us down quite a bit (e.g., as if Anusim weren't smart enough to seek each other out?). 

By the way, he didn't mind using my granddad's old Stefan Czarniecki canard on me. He lost, though: ours was "Czerniecki" (apparently. It could've been "Zernetzky", too. Who knows? It was an Anusi marriage done at Maćkowa Ruda, far from Krasne and Lipsk, and far from the eyes and ears of rabbis who'd've never allowed a Catholic marriage even for "Antoni" and "Katarzyna" to gain freedom from serfdom). We were never near the Anti-Semite Stefan Czarniecki (We are related to Kirk Douglas, though. I don't know the connection; yet, there you go: "Danilovich" wasn't just a patronymic after all, and the Daniloviches are responsible for producing an Exodus denier who raped Natalie Wood. We're also responsible for producing Jack Czarnecki, who hurt a lot of people—including by hiding his Jewishness and trying to connect us to Stefan Czarniecki. 

(Concerning that [i.e., Kirk Douglas, my granddad's self hating, and whatever else that is bad that I didn't know until I began doing the family research] , I was like Darby Conley after he got his cat—"sorry and ignorant.")

A Particular Troll On PolishForums.Com and Observations

Firstly, I want to apologize to Magdalena. I guess that I lumped her in with Harry and Jon when she had taken their side and vice versa. When two troublemakers defend someone honest and vice versa, to tell who's honest and who's not gets hard. Secondly, I want to warn you to watch out for Harry and particular (as the exchange below will show). By the way, this guy has denied that Dad has ever abused me and has said that Dad loves me, and he doesn't even know anything other than what I've said—and what does that tell you about him? He denies abuse and falsely defends an abuser, and slanders the abuse victim who would have no reason to lie—and if he wants to talk about evidence, he can look up "Czarnecki v. Czarnecki (2006)" (or whatever the case is called—perhaps "En re Czarnecki" (2006)) in the Howard County, Maryland court system. The verdict was in my and my sister's favor.

Also, I have nothing to hide about my family, etc., regardless of that my family did. As the exchange below will show, my great-great-granddad's parents clearly went out of their way to hide from their ro'eh that they married Roman Catholicly. They went nine hours and 34 minutes away to marry.

No wonder, then, that they would be angry when their son and in-law daughter became Anusim during the pogroms—to them, that their son and in-law daughter would become Anusim after they returned to Judaism and had married Roman Catholicly only to secure their freedom was a slap in the face in their minds. They must've been thinking, "Did you not learn from our mistake? You have committed a chillul HaShem! You have made your lives more important than your nefashot."

Besides, there had already been the January Uprising, and Poles couldn't own land. So, why did Antoni and Katarzyna own a farm in Lipsk? Besides, Julian Danilowicz fled conscription. Poles may have been unlucky, but Jews were worse off:

"Unlike enlightened Jews in the Polish Congress Kingdom who argued for Jewish personal army service to prove their patriotism and eventually to bring them full emancipation, Jewish communal elders throughout the Pale of Settlement had well-grounded doubts about the good will of the Russian authorities. Before the publication of the statute, Jews realized that conscription jeopardized the traditional status of their community. Accordingly, Jews flocked to such tsadikim as Avraham Yehoshu‘a Heshel (d. 1825), seeking intercession with the Almighty. Supported by Hasidic tsadikim and wealthy Jews, they raised funds to bribe state officials, vainly struggling to prevent the law on Jewish conscription from being implemented."

Also, there were "Jew hunts", not Catholic hunts. So, Julian Danilowicz and Julian and Alexandria Czernecki took the course of converting to Roman Catholicism and living as Anusim in the United States. 

By the way, as I type, the exchange is getting worse. I meant "out of the way of Lipsk and Krasne". Maybe I don't apologize to Magdalena after all. Furthermore, there are no random events or coincidences in life (co[inciding]-incidences? Sure. Coincidences? No.)—I just wanted to note that in case anyone else wants to pull the "How do you know that you're related to those Andruleviches?" card, for example.

pam   ♀ ModeratorToday, 10:53am  #

Nickidewbear:

And how do I know? She's not one of these people that I can exactly trust.

I am also telling you that the sentence was translated correctly. But you obviously don't want to take my word for that either.
As for whether you can trust Magdalena, I notice you accepted without question her translation of the marriage certificate, so why would you doubt her translation of that sentence? Because it doesn't fit in with what you thought it meant? Magdalena is also a professional translator,so why would she put her reputation on the line giving you an inaccurate translation that anyone with any knowledge of Polish could pick up on as being wrong? I think you are doing her an injustice here.

Nickidewbear:

Nickidewbear:Then why do I get so many hits saying that is reliable for the basic gist?



I use it for translation of a few words here and there.
When it comes to sentences, in my opinion it's more often wrong than right.


Your opinion seems to contradict with the evidence, though; and then I get the rapsheet when I bring up evidence that points to something? I'm sorry for you that I'm not the mold-fitting Jew; and if something seems questionable and agenda pushed, I'm going to bring it up.

I am not interested in what other users of Google Translate think Nicki. I am telling you that on the many occasions that I have used it in the past, it was inaccurate and unreliable which is why I rarely use it these days. Presuming that you don't speak another language and haven't had occasion to use Google Translate that often, you wouldn't understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim.
I don't have any axe to grind with you Nicki. Whether you are Jewish or not doesn't actually interest me.
I spoke up only because Magdalena's translation is correct, and from initially thanking her for her translation of the marriage certificate, you are now condemning someone who tried to help you as a liar.
I don't think that's very fair.

Reply    Quote

Harry   ♂Edited by: Harry  Today, 11:16am   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

 I just had a legitimate question: "Why would they fall out with their son if they were Catholic, since he and his wife converted to Catholicism? Also, they didn't fall out until after Great-Granddad was born. Furthermore, why would he have to lie so much on his naturalization, etc. documents?"

Both of those questions were answered above (i.e. there are millions of reasons), you just didn't like the answers, especially given that your preferred answer is directly contradicted by this marriage certificate.

Nickidewbear:

To be honest, I think that someone is mistaken or lying: either Google Translate is or Magdalena is, or Maciej found a document with the same names that Great-Great-Granddad gave but with people who different people.

No, Magda is most certainly not lying to you. Google translate very often produces incorrect translations. It is possible that this document does refer to other people but it's more likely that it does refer to the people you think it refers to. Most probably it is you who is mistaken.

Nickidewbear:

Also, that they married Catholic doesn't preclude them from being Jewish if they are the right people.

You mean that they were so well connected that even though they were Jews they could get married as Catholics but they were not so well connected that they could get a rabbi to come to their tiny village? Interesting interpretation of the facts.

Nickidewbear:

Why would they not mention if the parents were Catholic, too?

Same reason the document didn't mention that they were humans: because it was so obvious!

Nickidewbear:

She, Harry, and Jon have had problems with that my family history doesn't fit the mold for how a Jew's history normally fits.

Nickie, I really do not give a cr@p how your family history fits with anything. I don't believe that there is a 'normal' history for any Jew; please stop lying about me.

Nickidewbear:

she could be lying to me in order to affect me to think something different, since she is fluent in Polish and I have no clue what is being said. So, she could be trying to dupe me.

She tried to help you and because you didn't like what the document says you accuse her of lying to you. I hope you don't expect any help from anybody else with translations in the future.

Nickidewbear:

If he was born Catholic, why did he marry a Jew?

Maybe he loved her? Maybe they got drunk and he knocked her up? Maybe she had a ton of cash and he wanted to get his hands on it? Maybe he had a fetish for Jews? Maybe his father was a virulent anti-semite and he wanted to really annoy his father because he hated his father? There are lots of possible reasons, including one which seems to have completely eluded you: maybe his bride was not a Jew?

Nickidewbear:

Also, why did he fall out with his parents for converting?

You only know that he fell out with his parents, not why he fell out with them. Given that they were married as Catholics, it's rather unlikely that they would have objected to him being a Catholic.

Nickidewbear:

Why did his son and grandson marry Jews?

See above. There are lots of possible reasons, including one which seems to have completely eluded you: maybe their brides were not Jews?

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Magdalena    ♀Edited by: Magdalena  Today, 11:39am   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

By the way, a Jewish Danilovich named Anton (as if Jews can't have Polish names):

You keep quoting these JewishGen records... and I agree, these people have some similar surnames to the ones in your family, and they did exist. There is only one problem here: how do you prove that they were related to you in any way? Simply having the same surname and living in roughly the same area is not much proof one way or the other. My paternal grandparents had the same surname as a very wealthy szlachta family living in their area, but they were not related to them at all - they were their freed serfs (this is just an example, I am not trying to imply anything about who your ancestors were by this).

As you know, Jews were made to start using surnames around the start of the 19th century, and many of them took the surnames that were popular in the general populace surrounding them. This is another reason not to trust in surname alone. You could be looking for Polish ancestors with a name like Złotopolski and find out you are Jewish, as well as think you might be Jewish and come across gentiles. As you said, it's not cut and dried at all.

This is why you need to look for further, more detailed info than that, is all I'm saying. I will repeat myself once again: the marriage certificate is not proof of your Jewish origin and I think you are starting to read too much into it, like "could 'priest' actually mean 'rabbi'" etc. If it were a rabbi marrying them, don't you think he would have written the certificate in Yiddish and kept the records in the Synagogue or some such place?

Another important clue: the certificate I translated clearly states that all of the participants were illiterate. As far as I know, all Jewish boys were taught to read and write? Wouldn't at least one of them be able to sign the certificate? "Illiterate" and "Polish-speaking" screams Catholic peasants to me.

For all I know, you might be Jewish, and I frankly couldn't care less one way or the other; but this particular document does nothing to prove that. I would be looking for late baptisms, intermarriages, typically Jewish first names in your family's records (not any and all Jewish records that fit the general area though).

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 04:23pm  #

pam:

Nickidewbear:And how do I know? She's not one of these people that I can exactly trust.

I am also telling you that the sentence was translated correctly. But you obviously don't want to take my word for that either.
As for whether you can trust Magdalena, I notice you accepted without question her translation of the marriage certificate, so why would you doubt her translation of that sentence? Because it doesn't fit in with what you thought it meant? Magdalena is also a professional translator,so why would she put her reputation on the line giving you an inaccurate translation that anyone with any knowledge of Polish could pick up on as being wrong? I think you are doing her an injustice here.

I told you why. Also, I did question the translation of the certificate by raising a question after that. I said, "I have a question, though." So, I did see something which I believed suspect

Nickidewbear:Nickidewbear:Then why do I get so many hits saying that is reliable for the basic gist?



I use it for translation of a few words here and there.
When it comes to sentences, in my opinion it's more often wrong than right.


Your opinion seems to contradict with the evidence, though; and then I get the rapsheet when I bring up evidence that points to something? I'm sorry for you that I'm not the mold-fitting Jew; and if something seems questionable and agenda pushed, I'm going to bring it up.


I am not interested in what other users of Google Translate think Nicki. I am telling you that on the many occasions that I have used it in the past, it was inaccurate and unreliable which is why I rarely use it these days. Presuming that you don't speak another language and haven't had occasion to use Google Translate that often, you wouldn't understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim.
I don't have any axe to grind with you Nicki. Whether you are Jewish or not doesn't actually interest me.
I spoke up only because Magdalena's translation is correct, and from initially thanking her for her translation of the marriage certificate, you are now condemning someone who tried to help you as a liar.
I don't think that's very fair.

I even said for the basic gist. I understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim. I've even had to submit corrections. What I resent, too, is the implication that I'm stupid about it. "Presuming that you don't speak another language and haven't had occasion to use Google Translate that often, you wouldn't understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim."

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Nickidewbear    ♀Edited by: Nickidewbear  Today, 04:36pm  #

Magdalena:

You keep quoting these JewishGen records... and I agree, these people have some similar surnames to the ones in your family, and they did exist. There is only one problem here: how do you prove that they were related to you in any way? Simply having the same surname and living in roughly the same area is not much proof one way or the other. My paternal grandparents had the same surname as a very wealthy szlachta family living in their area, but they were not related to them at all - they were their freed serfs (this is just an example, I am not trying to imply anything about who your ancestors were by this).

As you know, Jews were made to start using surnames around the start of the 19th century, and many of them took the surnames that were popular in the general populace surrounding them. This is another reason not to trust in surname alone. You could be looking for Polish ancestors with a name like Złotopolski and find out you are Jewish, as well as think you might be Jewish and come across gentiles. As you said, it's not cut and dried at all.

This is why you need to look for further, more detailed info than that, is all I'm saying. I will repeat myself once again: the marriage certificate is not proof of your Jewish origin and I think you are starting to read too much into it, like "could 'priest' actually mean 'rabbi'" etc. If it were a rabbi marrying them, don't you think he would have written the certificate in Yiddish and kept the records in the Synagogue or some such place?

Another important clue: the certificate I translated clearly states that all of the participants were illiterate. As far as I know, all Jewish boys were taught to read and write? Wouldn't at least one of them be able to sign the certificate? "Illiterate" and "Polish-speaking" screams Catholic peasants to me.

For all I know, you might be Jewish, and I frankly couldn't care less one way or the other; but this particular document does nothing to prove that. I would be looking for late baptisms, intermarriages, typically Jewish first names in your family's records (not any and all Jewish records that fit the general area though).

All I'm saying is that they may have been considered "illiterate" because they were not literate in Polish. Many Jews did not speak what they considered treif or goyische leshonot. Also, we don't have a family tree that traces beyond the 1700s. When they went to Lipsk, they may have remarried as "ba'alim teshuvah" who were "ba'alim b'lashon hakodesh. I just wanted to make sure that I am getting an honest translation because of what has happened in the past and what you are saying here.

Please understand that I am not ungrateful, and that I just don't take everything at face value. I apologize for any point at which I got contentious and went over the line in the way that I raised my question, and I am grateful for the translation.

PS As for Harry:

Harry:

Maybe he loved her? Maybe they got drunk and he knocked her up? Maybe she had a ton of cash and he wanted to get his hands on it? Maybe he had a fetish for Jews? Maybe his father was a virulent anti-semite and he wanted to really annoy his father because he hated his father? There are lots of possible reasons, including one which seems to have completely eluded you: maybe his bride was not a Jew?

When you, Harry, make statements like that, you shatter your credibility altogether. There is no evidence of any of that, including the "fetish" statement. Also, she was a Jew from Stakliskes who had Anusi family.

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Harry   ♂Today, 04:48pm   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

I told you why.

Saying that Magda is lying isn't going to make your ancestors Jewish. The only thing it's going to do is decrease the chances that anybody will help you with translations in the future.

Nickidewbear:

Also, I did question the translation of the certificate by raising a question after that. I said, "I have a question, though."

Your question has now been repeatedly answered. Unfortunately the documentary evidence does not fit your hypothesis; that means you need to re-assess your hypothesis, not claim that the translator is lying.

Nickidewbear:

I even said for the basic gist. I understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim.

Run what your cousin said through google translate: "Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy" http://translate.google.pl/#pl/en/Mysle%20ze%20tak%20a%20nawet%20 napewno%20to%20sa%20katolicy "I think that so even sure these are Catholics"

Nickidewbear:

There is no evidence of any of that, including the "fetish" statement.

There is exactly as much evidence that they married for love as there is that they did shidduch, i.e. absolutely none. However, there is documentation which strongly suggests that they did not did shidduch, i.e. their marriage certificate.

Nickidewbear:

 Also, she was a Jew from Stakliskes who had Anusi family.

Let me guess, the 'evidence that she was a Jew is that she married somebody you claim was a Jew and the 'evidence' that he was a Jew is that he married somebody you claim was a Jew, right?

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 06:10pm  #

Harry:

Nickidewbear:I told you why.
Saying that Magda is lying isn't going to make your ancestors Jewish. The only thing it's going to do is decrease the chances that anybody will help you with translations in the future.

I already apologized, and you look like a fool for rehashing it.

Nickidewbear:Also, I did question the translation of the certificate by raising a question after that. I said, "I have a question, though."
Your question has now been repeatedly answered. Unfortunately the documentary evidence does not fit your hypothesis; that means you need to re-assess your hypothesis, not claim that the translator is lying.

Actually, it does. I'd hate to be you right now because you're ignoring how far Maćkowa Ruda is from Lipsk and Krasne . If a condition for their freedom was to marry Catholic for their freedom, they were going to do it in an out-of-the-way town where the "rabbi"s would never be the wiser.

Nickidewbear:I even said for the basic gist. I understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim.
Run what your cousin said through google translate: "Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy" http://translate.google.pl/#pl/en/Mysle%20ze%20tak%20a%20nawet%20 napewno%20to%20sa%20katolicy "I think that so even sure these are Catholics"

It said, ""Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy no ale tylko tyle znalazlem:)"." Nice try, though.

Nickidewbear:There is no evidence of any of that, including the "fetish" statement.
There is exactly as much evidence that they married for love as there is that they did shidduch, i.e. absolutely none. However, there is documentation which strongly suggests that they did not did shidduch, i.e. their marriage certificate.

Actually, the documentation does suggest shidduch. Nice try, though.

Nickidewbear: Also, she was a Jew from Stakliskes who had Anusi family.
Let me guess, the 'evidence that she was a Jew is that she married somebody you claim was a Jew and the 'evidence' that he was a Jew is that he married somebody you claim was a Jew, right?

You clearly didn't pay attention, did you? This is why I ignore you. You cherrypick evidence for your convenience and then ignore evidence that I bring up, and then tell me that I'm cherrypicking. I'm going to tell you again, whether or not you give a darn, that she had Jewish cousins named Nik and Vil'gel'm, that her cousin Rochla was listed as "Hebrew", that her cousin Shmuil Morgovich died in Stakliskes and that (thus) her birthdate of June 26, 1882 actually checks out, that Jews did not intermarry in those days unless they wanted severe reprecussions, and that people converted "up" and not "down" in those days unless they wanted severe reprecussions (and, in fact, many of the gerim known as Subbotniks themselves became gerim Anusimbecause of that).

Don't expect me to read or respond to your posts in the future. I keep letting you get to me, and to do so is a mistake on my part.

[Updated exchange. By the way, Wigry is not even in the same parish.] Thank you for proving my point, Magdalena.]

ShawnH   ♂Today, 06:28pm   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

It said, ""Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy no ale tylko tyle znalazlem:)"." Nice try, though.

Nicki, when I put that phrase above (in its entirety) I get the following:

"I think that so even sure these are not Catholics but only so much I found"

Can you translate that for me? It makes no sense whatsoever to me. I wouldn't trust Google Translate as far as I could throw it. Especially if it has any colloquial Polish in it.

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Magdalena    ♀Today, 06:34pm   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

Actually, it does. I'd hate to be you right now because you're ignoring how far Maćkowa Ruda is from Lipsk and Krasne . If a condition for their freedom was to marry Catholic for their freedom, they were going to do it in an out-of-the-way town where the "rabbi"s would never be the wiser.

Actually, if the certificate is anything to go by, they got married at Wigry (not such a very out-of-the-way place at all):

http://wigry.diecezja.elk.pl/obszar-parafii.html
(area of the Parish - Maćkowa Ruda is included)

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&de pth=1&hl=en&langpair=pl|en&rurl=translate.google.com&u=http://www .wigry.pro/&usg=ALkJrhgQ08ejbeBelHdDJXgO9ul7ih3UjQ

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lunacy   ♀Today, 07:20pm   ☓  #

The problem is that your cousin didn't use any punctuation marks etc., correctly it should look like: "Myślę, że tak, a nawet na pewno to są katolicy, no ale tylko tyle znalazłem". Your cousin (male as I can see) was probably writing too hastily - or was it a quick message on the phone? Classic, sadly too many Polish people don't use punctuation nor Polish characters when writing quickly. Don't trust google translate too much, as Polish is gramatically a very complex language and google just can't translate correctly either from or to Polish (especially long sentences, short or one-word phrases are usually correct).
An experiment for you: translate there this very simple sentence: "Byłam tam z dwiema paniami". [Byłam is a female form of "być"="to be" in a past tense and that sentence means "I was there with two ladies" - where "I" is a woman.] Now copy the result and try to translate that sentence back to Polish. What did you get? Does it look the same as original?

I already saw that google translate has problems with the word "no" in Polish, which is actually untranslatable - it's an informal [common language] pause-word that is often used to emphasize the word/phrase that follows it. The most simple examples: we say "no tak" when we agree with something = we emphasize "tak" (english: yes), we scream "no nie!" in anger or sadness to emphasize "nie" (english: no) when we e.g. see something wrong. We also often keep saying "no... no... no..." when listening to someone and want him/her to continue (it often happens during phone conversations - to make the caller sure we're listening and keeping up with the story).

So, your cousin, male, wrote: "I think that yes, even certainly they are Catholics, but that's all I found" - "no" was to emphasize the fact that it was all he found.

The priest in the certificate - "ksiądz" or "ks." in short - is certainly Christian. If that was a rabbi, a word "rabin" would be used.

I don't want to interfere in this topic too much, but those particular language details are very obvious and simple. Nickidewbear - if you don't have the trust in yourself for the answers you got, why don't you start learning Polish yourself?

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 07:38pm  #

lunacy:

The problem is that your cousin didn't use any punctuation marks etc., correctly it should look like: "Myślę, że tak, a nawet na pewno to są katolicy, no ale tylko tyle znalazłem". Your cousin (male as I can see) was probably writing too hastily - or was it a quick message on the phone? Classic, sadly too many Polish people don't use punctuation nor Polish characters when writing quickly. Don't trust google translate too much, as Polish is gramatically a very complex language and google just can't translate correctly either from or to Polish (especially long sentences, short or one-word phrases are usually correct).
An experiment for you: translate there this very simple sentence: "Byłam tam z dwiema paniami". [Byłam is a female form of "być"="to be" in a past tense and that sentence means "I was there with two ladies" - where "I" is a woman.] Now copy the result and try to translate that sentence back to Polish. What did you get? Does it look the same as original?

I already saw that google translate has problems with the word "no" in Polish, which is actually untranslatable - it's an informal [common language] pause-word that is often used to emphasize the word/phrase that follows it. The most simple examples: we say "no tak" when we agree with something = we emphasize "tak" (english: yes), we scream "no nie!" in anger or sadness to emphasize "nie" (english: no) when we e.g. see something wrong. We also often keep saying "no... no... no..." when listening to someone and want him/her to continue (it often happens during phone conversations - to make the caller sure we're listening and keeping up with the story).

So, your cousin, male, wrote: "I think that yes, even certainly they are Catholics, but that's all I found" - "no" was to emphasize the fact that it was all he found.

The priest in the certificate - "ksiądz" or "ks." in short - is certainly Christian. If that was a rabbi, a word "rabin" would be used.

I don't want to interfere in this topic too much, but those particular language details are very obvious and simple. Nickidewbear - if you don't have the trust in yourself for the answers you got, why don't you start learning Polish yourself?

I just wanted to make sure, and I already apologized for what I needed to apologize. I also already said that I accept the certificate. How when I bring up evidence is ignored, but I'm cherrypicked. How convenient.

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lunacy   ♀Today, 07:41pm   ☓  #

Wow. You're not cherrypicked by anyone. I just wanted to help and explain the Polish "no", because the sentence written by your cousin caused such a buzz and ShawnH asked for translation.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 07:53pm  #

lunacy:

Wow. You're not cherrypicked by anyone. I just wanted to help and explain the Polish "no", because the sentence written by your cousin caused such a buzz and ShawnH asked for translation.

Then how come you conveniently ignored that I already apologized, for example? I was very explicit in saying that "I apologize for any point at which I got contentious and went over the line in the way that I raised my question, and I am grateful for the translation." Also, I am cherrypicked. That's very obvious, and I didn't mean by you at all up until this point. I meant by people like Harry. Also, I kept bringing up the Andruleviches, etc., and that was conveniently ignored.