I Told You That Something Stinks...

There is  too much coincidence for there to be a coincidence if you ask me. Adam Danilowicz abandoned his sons and married Caroline nee Grabowska in Luzerne County, and he was related to Katarzyna Danilowiczowna Czerniecka? And Katarzyna was the in-law daughter of a Kruszynska, and Rywa Krusznyska in Suwalki married Josel Grabowski in Suwalki? Also, a Wierzbinski married an Andrulewiczowna, and the Andrulewiczes and Danilowiczes are somehow related by blood?

Give me a break. "Coincidence" meir tuchus. Some in my family, at PolishForums, etc. can try to play with me, and I am not stupid. The story unravels more amazingly than I thought! I told you we're Jewish. I told you that I figured out that Great-Great-Granddad Julian's parents were married Roman Catholic in Mackowa Ruda in order to secure their freedom from being peasants, and that they left for Lipsk and returned to Judaism once they could!
"Szlachta" meir tuchus! As I said, some in my family, at PolishForums, etc. have tried to play a not-so-stupid person. Mazel tov to them; they have failed! 

Just because I don't fit someone's (for a lack of a better term) "Jew mold" doesn't mean that I'm not a Jew! As I told a friend, in order for me to be a Jew to them, I would have to have a fully-Jewish mom or have converted to Judaism. It still pisses me off. I even had my dad take an autosomal DNA test to prove that we're Jews.

It is important because I'd like to make aliyah someday and I could get accused of being a Pole posing as a Jew. People have already spread rumors that I'm not a Jew. I've even seen on my blog search feed that people have searched "nickidewbear not jewish". The lie that's probably going around in any case is that I'm a Slavic American descended from Slavic Catholics and szlachta, and that I'm posing as a Jewish American who's descended from Crypto Jews. If the rumors were true, I'd rightly be in trouble. Isn't that my family lied to me for years enough? Well, I'm either lying or I'm not, and the rumor is that I am lying. As I said, isn't that my family lied to me enough? I don't need to be lied to and about further.

I literally feel like Geraldo Rivera—who was lied about by an Anti-Semitic disc jockey who claimed that he was a Jew named Jerry Rivers and posing a Puerto Rican to take advantage of affirmative action—and that dad who was told that his part in his children's creation did not count—"How can you convert to what you are? Do I have to take a DNA test to prove you are my children?"

As I said, I had Dad take a DNA test. It shows West Asian, "Caucus", and Iberian (Sephardic) DNA! And I have the records, etc.. What more do I need?

A Particular Troll On PolishForums.Com and Observations

Firstly, I want to apologize to Magdalena. I guess that I lumped her in with Harry and Jon when she had taken their side and vice versa. When two troublemakers defend someone honest and vice versa, to tell who's honest and who's not gets hard. Secondly, I want to warn you to watch out for Harry and particular (as the exchange below will show). By the way, this guy has denied that Dad has ever abused me and has said that Dad loves me, and he doesn't even know anything other than what I've said—and what does that tell you about him? He denies abuse and falsely defends an abuser, and slanders the abuse victim who would have no reason to lie—and if he wants to talk about evidence, he can look up "Czarnecki v. Czarnecki (2006)" (or whatever the case is called—perhaps "En re Czarnecki" (2006)) in the Howard County, Maryland court system. The verdict was in my and my sister's favor.

Also, I have nothing to hide about my family, etc., regardless of that my family did. As the exchange below will show, my great-great-granddad's parents clearly went out of their way to hide from their ro'eh that they married Roman Catholicly. They went nine hours and 34 minutes away to marry.

No wonder, then, that they would be angry when their son and in-law daughter became Anusim during the pogroms—to them, that their son and in-law daughter would become Anusim after they returned to Judaism and had married Roman Catholicly only to secure their freedom was a slap in the face in their minds. They must've been thinking, "Did you not learn from our mistake? You have committed a chillul HaShem! You have made your lives more important than your nefashot."

Besides, there had already been the January Uprising, and Poles couldn't own land. So, why did Antoni and Katarzyna own a farm in Lipsk? Besides, Julian Danilowicz fled conscription. Poles may have been unlucky, but Jews were worse off:

"Unlike enlightened Jews in the Polish Congress Kingdom who argued for Jewish personal army service to prove their patriotism and eventually to bring them full emancipation, Jewish communal elders throughout the Pale of Settlement had well-grounded doubts about the good will of the Russian authorities. Before the publication of the statute, Jews realized that conscription jeopardized the traditional status of their community. Accordingly, Jews flocked to such tsadikim as Avraham Yehoshu‘a Heshel (d. 1825), seeking intercession with the Almighty. Supported by Hasidic tsadikim and wealthy Jews, they raised funds to bribe state officials, vainly struggling to prevent the law on Jewish conscription from being implemented."

Also, there were "Jew hunts", not Catholic hunts. So, Julian Danilowicz and Julian and Alexandria Czernecki took the course of converting to Roman Catholicism and living as Anusim in the United States. 

By the way, as I type, the exchange is getting worse. I meant "out of the way of Lipsk and Krasne". Maybe I don't apologize to Magdalena after all. Furthermore, there are no random events or coincidences in life (co[inciding]-incidences? Sure. Coincidences? No.)—I just wanted to note that in case anyone else wants to pull the "How do you know that you're related to those Andruleviches?" card, for example.

pam   ♀ ModeratorToday, 10:53am  #

Nickidewbear:

And how do I know? She's not one of these people that I can exactly trust.

I am also telling you that the sentence was translated correctly. But you obviously don't want to take my word for that either.
As for whether you can trust Magdalena, I notice you accepted without question her translation of the marriage certificate, so why would you doubt her translation of that sentence? Because it doesn't fit in with what you thought it meant? Magdalena is also a professional translator,so why would she put her reputation on the line giving you an inaccurate translation that anyone with any knowledge of Polish could pick up on as being wrong? I think you are doing her an injustice here.

Nickidewbear:

Nickidewbear:Then why do I get so many hits saying that is reliable for the basic gist?



I use it for translation of a few words here and there.
When it comes to sentences, in my opinion it's more often wrong than right.


Your opinion seems to contradict with the evidence, though; and then I get the rapsheet when I bring up evidence that points to something? I'm sorry for you that I'm not the mold-fitting Jew; and if something seems questionable and agenda pushed, I'm going to bring it up.

I am not interested in what other users of Google Translate think Nicki. I am telling you that on the many occasions that I have used it in the past, it was inaccurate and unreliable which is why I rarely use it these days. Presuming that you don't speak another language and haven't had occasion to use Google Translate that often, you wouldn't understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim.
I don't have any axe to grind with you Nicki. Whether you are Jewish or not doesn't actually interest me.
I spoke up only because Magdalena's translation is correct, and from initially thanking her for her translation of the marriage certificate, you are now condemning someone who tried to help you as a liar.
I don't think that's very fair.

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Harry   ♂Edited by: Harry  Today, 11:16am   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

 I just had a legitimate question: "Why would they fall out with their son if they were Catholic, since he and his wife converted to Catholicism? Also, they didn't fall out until after Great-Granddad was born. Furthermore, why would he have to lie so much on his naturalization, etc. documents?"

Both of those questions were answered above (i.e. there are millions of reasons), you just didn't like the answers, especially given that your preferred answer is directly contradicted by this marriage certificate.

Nickidewbear:

To be honest, I think that someone is mistaken or lying: either Google Translate is or Magdalena is, or Maciej found a document with the same names that Great-Great-Granddad gave but with people who different people.

No, Magda is most certainly not lying to you. Google translate very often produces incorrect translations. It is possible that this document does refer to other people but it's more likely that it does refer to the people you think it refers to. Most probably it is you who is mistaken.

Nickidewbear:

Also, that they married Catholic doesn't preclude them from being Jewish if they are the right people.

You mean that they were so well connected that even though they were Jews they could get married as Catholics but they were not so well connected that they could get a rabbi to come to their tiny village? Interesting interpretation of the facts.

Nickidewbear:

Why would they not mention if the parents were Catholic, too?

Same reason the document didn't mention that they were humans: because it was so obvious!

Nickidewbear:

She, Harry, and Jon have had problems with that my family history doesn't fit the mold for how a Jew's history normally fits.

Nickie, I really do not give a cr@p how your family history fits with anything. I don't believe that there is a 'normal' history for any Jew; please stop lying about me.

Nickidewbear:

she could be lying to me in order to affect me to think something different, since she is fluent in Polish and I have no clue what is being said. So, she could be trying to dupe me.

She tried to help you and because you didn't like what the document says you accuse her of lying to you. I hope you don't expect any help from anybody else with translations in the future.

Nickidewbear:

If he was born Catholic, why did he marry a Jew?

Maybe he loved her? Maybe they got drunk and he knocked her up? Maybe she had a ton of cash and he wanted to get his hands on it? Maybe he had a fetish for Jews? Maybe his father was a virulent anti-semite and he wanted to really annoy his father because he hated his father? There are lots of possible reasons, including one which seems to have completely eluded you: maybe his bride was not a Jew?

Nickidewbear:

Also, why did he fall out with his parents for converting?

You only know that he fell out with his parents, not why he fell out with them. Given that they were married as Catholics, it's rather unlikely that they would have objected to him being a Catholic.

Nickidewbear:

Why did his son and grandson marry Jews?

See above. There are lots of possible reasons, including one which seems to have completely eluded you: maybe their brides were not Jews?

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Magdalena    ♀Edited by: Magdalena  Today, 11:39am   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

By the way, a Jewish Danilovich named Anton (as if Jews can't have Polish names):

You keep quoting these JewishGen records... and I agree, these people have some similar surnames to the ones in your family, and they did exist. There is only one problem here: how do you prove that they were related to you in any way? Simply having the same surname and living in roughly the same area is not much proof one way or the other. My paternal grandparents had the same surname as a very wealthy szlachta family living in their area, but they were not related to them at all - they were their freed serfs (this is just an example, I am not trying to imply anything about who your ancestors were by this).

As you know, Jews were made to start using surnames around the start of the 19th century, and many of them took the surnames that were popular in the general populace surrounding them. This is another reason not to trust in surname alone. You could be looking for Polish ancestors with a name like Złotopolski and find out you are Jewish, as well as think you might be Jewish and come across gentiles. As you said, it's not cut and dried at all.

This is why you need to look for further, more detailed info than that, is all I'm saying. I will repeat myself once again: the marriage certificate is not proof of your Jewish origin and I think you are starting to read too much into it, like "could 'priest' actually mean 'rabbi'" etc. If it were a rabbi marrying them, don't you think he would have written the certificate in Yiddish and kept the records in the Synagogue or some such place?

Another important clue: the certificate I translated clearly states that all of the participants were illiterate. As far as I know, all Jewish boys were taught to read and write? Wouldn't at least one of them be able to sign the certificate? "Illiterate" and "Polish-speaking" screams Catholic peasants to me.

For all I know, you might be Jewish, and I frankly couldn't care less one way or the other; but this particular document does nothing to prove that. I would be looking for late baptisms, intermarriages, typically Jewish first names in your family's records (not any and all Jewish records that fit the general area though).

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 04:23pm  #

pam:

Nickidewbear:And how do I know? She's not one of these people that I can exactly trust.

I am also telling you that the sentence was translated correctly. But you obviously don't want to take my word for that either.
As for whether you can trust Magdalena, I notice you accepted without question her translation of the marriage certificate, so why would you doubt her translation of that sentence? Because it doesn't fit in with what you thought it meant? Magdalena is also a professional translator,so why would she put her reputation on the line giving you an inaccurate translation that anyone with any knowledge of Polish could pick up on as being wrong? I think you are doing her an injustice here.

I told you why. Also, I did question the translation of the certificate by raising a question after that. I said, "I have a question, though." So, I did see something which I believed suspect

Nickidewbear:Nickidewbear:Then why do I get so many hits saying that is reliable for the basic gist?



I use it for translation of a few words here and there.
When it comes to sentences, in my opinion it's more often wrong than right.


Your opinion seems to contradict with the evidence, though; and then I get the rapsheet when I bring up evidence that points to something? I'm sorry for you that I'm not the mold-fitting Jew; and if something seems questionable and agenda pushed, I'm going to bring it up.


I am not interested in what other users of Google Translate think Nicki. I am telling you that on the many occasions that I have used it in the past, it was inaccurate and unreliable which is why I rarely use it these days. Presuming that you don't speak another language and haven't had occasion to use Google Translate that often, you wouldn't understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim.
I don't have any axe to grind with you Nicki. Whether you are Jewish or not doesn't actually interest me.
I spoke up only because Magdalena's translation is correct, and from initially thanking her for her translation of the marriage certificate, you are now condemning someone who tried to help you as a liar.
I don't think that's very fair.

I even said for the basic gist. I understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim. I've even had to submit corrections. What I resent, too, is the implication that I'm stupid about it. "Presuming that you don't speak another language and haven't had occasion to use Google Translate that often, you wouldn't understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim."

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Nickidewbear    ♀Edited by: Nickidewbear  Today, 04:36pm  #

Magdalena:

You keep quoting these JewishGen records... and I agree, these people have some similar surnames to the ones in your family, and they did exist. There is only one problem here: how do you prove that they were related to you in any way? Simply having the same surname and living in roughly the same area is not much proof one way or the other. My paternal grandparents had the same surname as a very wealthy szlachta family living in their area, but they were not related to them at all - they were their freed serfs (this is just an example, I am not trying to imply anything about who your ancestors were by this).

As you know, Jews were made to start using surnames around the start of the 19th century, and many of them took the surnames that were popular in the general populace surrounding them. This is another reason not to trust in surname alone. You could be looking for Polish ancestors with a name like Złotopolski and find out you are Jewish, as well as think you might be Jewish and come across gentiles. As you said, it's not cut and dried at all.

This is why you need to look for further, more detailed info than that, is all I'm saying. I will repeat myself once again: the marriage certificate is not proof of your Jewish origin and I think you are starting to read too much into it, like "could 'priest' actually mean 'rabbi'" etc. If it were a rabbi marrying them, don't you think he would have written the certificate in Yiddish and kept the records in the Synagogue or some such place?

Another important clue: the certificate I translated clearly states that all of the participants were illiterate. As far as I know, all Jewish boys were taught to read and write? Wouldn't at least one of them be able to sign the certificate? "Illiterate" and "Polish-speaking" screams Catholic peasants to me.

For all I know, you might be Jewish, and I frankly couldn't care less one way or the other; but this particular document does nothing to prove that. I would be looking for late baptisms, intermarriages, typically Jewish first names in your family's records (not any and all Jewish records that fit the general area though).

All I'm saying is that they may have been considered "illiterate" because they were not literate in Polish. Many Jews did not speak what they considered treif or goyische leshonot. Also, we don't have a family tree that traces beyond the 1700s. When they went to Lipsk, they may have remarried as "ba'alim teshuvah" who were "ba'alim b'lashon hakodesh. I just wanted to make sure that I am getting an honest translation because of what has happened in the past and what you are saying here.

Please understand that I am not ungrateful, and that I just don't take everything at face value. I apologize for any point at which I got contentious and went over the line in the way that I raised my question, and I am grateful for the translation.

PS As for Harry:

Harry:

Maybe he loved her? Maybe they got drunk and he knocked her up? Maybe she had a ton of cash and he wanted to get his hands on it? Maybe he had a fetish for Jews? Maybe his father was a virulent anti-semite and he wanted to really annoy his father because he hated his father? There are lots of possible reasons, including one which seems to have completely eluded you: maybe his bride was not a Jew?

When you, Harry, make statements like that, you shatter your credibility altogether. There is no evidence of any of that, including the "fetish" statement. Also, she was a Jew from Stakliskes who had Anusi family.

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Harry   ♂Today, 04:48pm   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

I told you why.

Saying that Magda is lying isn't going to make your ancestors Jewish. The only thing it's going to do is decrease the chances that anybody will help you with translations in the future.

Nickidewbear:

Also, I did question the translation of the certificate by raising a question after that. I said, "I have a question, though."

Your question has now been repeatedly answered. Unfortunately the documentary evidence does not fit your hypothesis; that means you need to re-assess your hypothesis, not claim that the translator is lying.

Nickidewbear:

I even said for the basic gist. I understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim.

Run what your cousin said through google translate: "Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy" http://translate.google.pl/#pl/en/Mysle%20ze%20tak%20a%20nawet%20 napewno%20to%20sa%20katolicy "I think that so even sure these are Catholics"

Nickidewbear:

There is no evidence of any of that, including the "fetish" statement.

There is exactly as much evidence that they married for love as there is that they did shidduch, i.e. absolutely none. However, there is documentation which strongly suggests that they did not did shidduch, i.e. their marriage certificate.

Nickidewbear:

 Also, she was a Jew from Stakliskes who had Anusi family.

Let me guess, the 'evidence that she was a Jew is that she married somebody you claim was a Jew and the 'evidence' that he was a Jew is that he married somebody you claim was a Jew, right?

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 06:10pm  #

Harry:

Nickidewbear:I told you why.
Saying that Magda is lying isn't going to make your ancestors Jewish. The only thing it's going to do is decrease the chances that anybody will help you with translations in the future.

I already apologized, and you look like a fool for rehashing it.

Nickidewbear:Also, I did question the translation of the certificate by raising a question after that. I said, "I have a question, though."
Your question has now been repeatedly answered. Unfortunately the documentary evidence does not fit your hypothesis; that means you need to re-assess your hypothesis, not claim that the translator is lying.

Actually, it does. I'd hate to be you right now because you're ignoring how far Maćkowa Ruda is from Lipsk and Krasne . If a condition for their freedom was to marry Catholic for their freedom, they were going to do it in an out-of-the-way town where the "rabbi"s would never be the wiser.

Nickidewbear:I even said for the basic gist. I understand that it doesn't translate everything verbatim.
Run what your cousin said through google translate: "Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy" http://translate.google.pl/#pl/en/Mysle%20ze%20tak%20a%20nawet%20 napewno%20to%20sa%20katolicy "I think that so even sure these are Catholics"

It said, ""Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy no ale tylko tyle znalazlem:)"." Nice try, though.

Nickidewbear:There is no evidence of any of that, including the "fetish" statement.
There is exactly as much evidence that they married for love as there is that they did shidduch, i.e. absolutely none. However, there is documentation which strongly suggests that they did not did shidduch, i.e. their marriage certificate.

Actually, the documentation does suggest shidduch. Nice try, though.

Nickidewbear: Also, she was a Jew from Stakliskes who had Anusi family.
Let me guess, the 'evidence that she was a Jew is that she married somebody you claim was a Jew and the 'evidence' that he was a Jew is that he married somebody you claim was a Jew, right?

You clearly didn't pay attention, did you? This is why I ignore you. You cherrypick evidence for your convenience and then ignore evidence that I bring up, and then tell me that I'm cherrypicking. I'm going to tell you again, whether or not you give a darn, that she had Jewish cousins named Nik and Vil'gel'm, that her cousin Rochla was listed as "Hebrew", that her cousin Shmuil Morgovich died in Stakliskes and that (thus) her birthdate of June 26, 1882 actually checks out, that Jews did not intermarry in those days unless they wanted severe reprecussions, and that people converted "up" and not "down" in those days unless they wanted severe reprecussions (and, in fact, many of the gerim known as Subbotniks themselves became gerim Anusimbecause of that).

Don't expect me to read or respond to your posts in the future. I keep letting you get to me, and to do so is a mistake on my part.

[Updated exchange. By the way, Wigry is not even in the same parish.] Thank you for proving my point, Magdalena.]

ShawnH   ♂Today, 06:28pm   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

It said, ""Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy no ale tylko tyle znalazlem:)"." Nice try, though.

Nicki, when I put that phrase above (in its entirety) I get the following:

"I think that so even sure these are not Catholics but only so much I found"

Can you translate that for me? It makes no sense whatsoever to me. I wouldn't trust Google Translate as far as I could throw it. Especially if it has any colloquial Polish in it.

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Magdalena    ♀Today, 06:34pm   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

Actually, it does. I'd hate to be you right now because you're ignoring how far Maćkowa Ruda is from Lipsk and Krasne . If a condition for their freedom was to marry Catholic for their freedom, they were going to do it in an out-of-the-way town where the "rabbi"s would never be the wiser.

Actually, if the certificate is anything to go by, they got married at Wigry (not such a very out-of-the-way place at all):

http://wigry.diecezja.elk.pl/obszar-parafii.html
(area of the Parish - Maćkowa Ruda is included)

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&de pth=1&hl=en&langpair=pl|en&rurl=translate.google.com&u=http://www .wigry.pro/&usg=ALkJrhgQ08ejbeBelHdDJXgO9ul7ih3UjQ

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lunacy   ♀Today, 07:20pm   ☓  #

The problem is that your cousin didn't use any punctuation marks etc., correctly it should look like: "Myślę, że tak, a nawet na pewno to są katolicy, no ale tylko tyle znalazłem". Your cousin (male as I can see) was probably writing too hastily - or was it a quick message on the phone? Classic, sadly too many Polish people don't use punctuation nor Polish characters when writing quickly. Don't trust google translate too much, as Polish is gramatically a very complex language and google just can't translate correctly either from or to Polish (especially long sentences, short or one-word phrases are usually correct).
An experiment for you: translate there this very simple sentence: "Byłam tam z dwiema paniami". [Byłam is a female form of "być"="to be" in a past tense and that sentence means "I was there with two ladies" - where "I" is a woman.] Now copy the result and try to translate that sentence back to Polish. What did you get? Does it look the same as original?

I already saw that google translate has problems with the word "no" in Polish, which is actually untranslatable - it's an informal [common language] pause-word that is often used to emphasize the word/phrase that follows it. The most simple examples: we say "no tak" when we agree with something = we emphasize "tak" (english: yes), we scream "no nie!" in anger or sadness to emphasize "nie" (english: no) when we e.g. see something wrong. We also often keep saying "no... no... no..." when listening to someone and want him/her to continue (it often happens during phone conversations - to make the caller sure we're listening and keeping up with the story).

So, your cousin, male, wrote: "I think that yes, even certainly they are Catholics, but that's all I found" - "no" was to emphasize the fact that it was all he found.

The priest in the certificate - "ksiądz" or "ks." in short - is certainly Christian. If that was a rabbi, a word "rabin" would be used.

I don't want to interfere in this topic too much, but those particular language details are very obvious and simple. Nickidewbear - if you don't have the trust in yourself for the answers you got, why don't you start learning Polish yourself?

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 07:38pm  #

lunacy:

The problem is that your cousin didn't use any punctuation marks etc., correctly it should look like: "Myślę, że tak, a nawet na pewno to są katolicy, no ale tylko tyle znalazłem". Your cousin (male as I can see) was probably writing too hastily - or was it a quick message on the phone? Classic, sadly too many Polish people don't use punctuation nor Polish characters when writing quickly. Don't trust google translate too much, as Polish is gramatically a very complex language and google just can't translate correctly either from or to Polish (especially long sentences, short or one-word phrases are usually correct).
An experiment for you: translate there this very simple sentence: "Byłam tam z dwiema paniami". [Byłam is a female form of "być"="to be" in a past tense and that sentence means "I was there with two ladies" - where "I" is a woman.] Now copy the result and try to translate that sentence back to Polish. What did you get? Does it look the same as original?

I already saw that google translate has problems with the word "no" in Polish, which is actually untranslatable - it's an informal [common language] pause-word that is often used to emphasize the word/phrase that follows it. The most simple examples: we say "no tak" when we agree with something = we emphasize "tak" (english: yes), we scream "no nie!" in anger or sadness to emphasize "nie" (english: no) when we e.g. see something wrong. We also often keep saying "no... no... no..." when listening to someone and want him/her to continue (it often happens during phone conversations - to make the caller sure we're listening and keeping up with the story).

So, your cousin, male, wrote: "I think that yes, even certainly they are Catholics, but that's all I found" - "no" was to emphasize the fact that it was all he found.

The priest in the certificate - "ksiądz" or "ks." in short - is certainly Christian. If that was a rabbi, a word "rabin" would be used.

I don't want to interfere in this topic too much, but those particular language details are very obvious and simple. Nickidewbear - if you don't have the trust in yourself for the answers you got, why don't you start learning Polish yourself?

I just wanted to make sure, and I already apologized for what I needed to apologize. I also already said that I accept the certificate. How when I bring up evidence is ignored, but I'm cherrypicked. How convenient.

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lunacy   ♀Today, 07:41pm   ☓  #

Wow. You're not cherrypicked by anyone. I just wanted to help and explain the Polish "no", because the sentence written by your cousin caused such a buzz and ShawnH asked for translation.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 07:53pm  #

lunacy:

Wow. You're not cherrypicked by anyone. I just wanted to help and explain the Polish "no", because the sentence written by your cousin caused such a buzz and ShawnH asked for translation.

Then how come you conveniently ignored that I already apologized, for example? I was very explicit in saying that "I apologize for any point at which I got contentious and went over the line in the way that I raised my question, and I am grateful for the translation." Also, I am cherrypicked. That's very obvious, and I didn't mean by you at all up until this point. I meant by people like Harry. Also, I kept bringing up the Andruleviches, etc., and that was conveniently ignored.

The Puzzle, Aka "When Honest People Are Screwed Over Because Life Doesn't Fit Face-Value, Sanitized Molds"

In short, life isn't a cry-and-dry mold in of itself. In fact, lives often don't fit molds. There are common threads in every life, and every life is nonetheless like every DNA code: no two are exactly like, even in twins.

Sometimes, that means that a life will be pretty messy and broken, and unable to have its pieces put together for it. For example, with my life, I don't have all of the pieces that can make others see the puzzle of a Crypto Jew's daughter who came from a background that she never expected. Similarly and to a greater degree, Dylan Farrow doesn't have all of the pieces that can make others see that part of her puzzle on which Woody Allen's traumatic abuse against her is painted.

With some people, they'd have to see the puzzle pieces being made and painted on in order for them to believe that the puzzle exists and that the pieces are somewhere out there, if not right there in their faces. Case in point, this is how I got screwed over when I didn't take everything at face value and wanted to make sure that what I saw was everything that was there, and when I laid out a good number of the puzzle pieces that I do have:

Nickidewbear    ♀Feb 3, 2014, 03:25am  #

This is apparently the marriage certificate of Julian Czernecki's parents (z"l).

• 
  The apparent marriage certificate.

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gask7   ♂Feb 4, 2014, 09:35am   ☓  #

From the 6th February 1860 at 4 pm.
Beautiful old Polish language.
Wonderful marriage certificate.
First I need to translate this to nowadays Polish.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Feb 4, 2014, 08:02pm  #

gask7:

From the 6th February 1860 at 4 pm.
Beautiful old Polish language.
Wonderful marriage certificate.
First I need to translate this to nowadays Polish.

Thank you so much.

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Magdalena    ♀Feb 4, 2014, 10:28pm   ☓  #

Maćkowa Ruda. Wigry, 06 February 1860, 4 p.m. This is to announce that in the presence of witnesses: Antoni Wierzbiński, uncle of the newly married householder at Maćkowa Ruda, and Ignacy Majsalski (?), labourer from Mikołajewo, both of 40 years of age, a religious marriage was solemnised today by the undersigned priest between Antoni Czerniecki, bachelor from Maćkowa Ruda living with his parents, born in Krasne to Paweł and Dominika nee Wierzbińska the spouses Czerniecki, aged 20, and Katarzyna Daniłowiczówna, spinster, daughter of Wojciech and Maryanna nee Kruszyńska the spouses Daniłowicz, aged 17, born and resident in Krasne. The marriage was preceded by three banns, the first on the 15th, the second on the 22nd, and the third on the 22nd of January of this year at the Wigry Parish. No impediment to the marriage has been shown to exist. The newlyweds hereby declare that they have not signed a prenuptial agreement. This Certificate has been read to all the participants and witnesses, all of whom are illiterate, and signed by us - Rev. W. Olszewski (?) Parish Priest

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Nickidewbear    ♀Feb 4, 2014, 10:43pm  #

Thank you so much. Did the certificate specify which priest? I was told by my cousin that it is a non-Catholic certificate.

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Magdalena    ♀Feb 4, 2014, 11:30pm   ☓  #

It doesn't say anything outright, but all the details point to a Roman Catholic wedding - it's in Polish, not Russian, so not Russian Orthodox, and banns and a parish priest are mentioned, so not Jewish. There is nothing in the document pointing to a non-Catholic ceremony. Did your cousin justify their opinion in any way?

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Nickidewbear    ♀Feb 4, 2014, 11:45pm  #

Magdalena:

It doesn't say anything outright, but all the details point to a Roman Catholic wedding - it's in Polish, not Russian, so not Russian Orthodox, and banns and a parish priest are mentioned, so not Jewish. There is nothing in the document pointing to a non-Catholic ceremony. Did your cousin justify their opinion in any way?

He said, "Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy no ale tylko tyle znalazlem:)". Roughly, this translates to (as far as I can tell with Google Translate), "I think that so even sure these are not Catholics but only so much I found :)".

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Magdalena    ♀Edited by: Magdalena  Feb 4, 2014, 11:46pm   ☓  #

It says the exact opposite, actually: "I think they were, or I am even sure they were Catholic, but this is only based on this one document (that I found)". Google Translate is NOT to be relied on too heavily.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Feb 4, 2014, 11:52pm  #

Magdalena:

It says the exact opposite, actually: "I think they were, or I am even sure they were Catholic, but this is only based on this one document". Google Translate is NOT to be relied on too heavily.

Ok. Thanks.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 12:19am  #

I do have a question, though: why would they fall out with their son if they were Catholic, since he and his wife converted to Catholicism? Also, they didn't fall out until after Great-Granddad was born. Furthermore, why would he have to lie so much on his naturalization, etc. documents?

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Magdalena    ♀Yesterday, 12:24am   ☓  #

they could have quarrelled with their son for any number of reasons, don't you think? and how could he convert to Catholicism if he was clearly born to Catholic parents? as to naturalisation documents, they were filled out by Ellis Island officials who wrote down whatever they thought they heard the immigrants say, or just wrote down what they thought was right, esp. regarding names and surnames. many immigrants were illiterate or half illiterate, so they then made further spelling mistakes in their names as time went on.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 12:39am  #

Magdalena:

they could have quarrelled with their son for any number of reasons, don't you think? and how could he convert to Catholicism if he was clearly born to Catholic parents? as to naturalisation documents, they were filled out by Ellis Island officials who wrote down whatever they thought they heard the immigrants say, or just wrote down what they thought was right, esp. regarding names and surnames. many immigrants were illiterate or half illiterate, so they then made further spelling mistakes in their names as time went on.

Maybe they were Anusim. His wife wasn't born an Anusit, though; I assure you that. In fact, her branch was a holdout among the Andrulevicuses. She would not have married a Catholic. Also, can you translate this for me? " jak cos znajde to tobie wysle oki:)" I want to make sure that I'm reading what he's saying rightly.

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Magdalena    ♀Yesterday, 12:57am   ☓  #

he's saying "as soon as I find something, I will send it to you, OK?"

do you have any birth, marriage, or death certificates regarding the son's wife, then?
also, all the surnames so far - Czerniecki, Daniłowicz, Wierzbińska, and Kruszyńska, are 100% typical Polish surnames. the same goes for the given names - Paweł, Dominika, Wojciech, Maryanna, Antoni, and Katarzyna.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 01:03am  #

Magdalena:

he's saying "as soon as I find something, I will send it to you, OK?"

do you have any birth, marriage, or death certificates regarding the son's wife, then?
also, all the surnames so far - Czerniecki, Daniłowicz, Wierzbińska, and Kruszyńska, are 100% typical Polish surnames. the same goes for the given names - Paweł, Dominika, Wojciech, Maryanna, Antoni, and Katarzyna.

Thank you. I thought that's what it was saying. Yes, I do. She also gave her parents' names as "Anthony" and "Katherine". However, the Andrulevicuses were Jewish. Her mother was a Margiewicz (Morgiewicz/Morgovich. She was related to Shmuil Morgovich of Stakliskes.), and her dad was a Andrulevicus. He had relatives such as Vilgelm Andrulevich, Nik Andrelovich, Rochla Andrelewitz, and Jacob Andralowitz (who they sent a Jewish serviceman's card.). Also, "Pawel" ("Paul") was surprisingly used among Jews (See JewFAQ), and "Danilowicz" simply means "ben-Daniel".

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Magdalena    ♀Yesterday, 01:22am   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

"Danilowicz" simply means "ben-Daniel".

Daniłowicz is both a Russian and a Polish surname; they might even have belonged to the szlachta.

Nickidewbear:

She also gave her parents' names as "Anthony" and "Katherine"

Antoni and Katarzyna were very popular given names at the time, so there is no reason to believe she would be lying. E.g. every other woman in my father's family was baptised Katarzyna over a period of almost 100 years.

Nickidewbear:

However, the Andrulevicuses were Jewish. Her mother was a Margiewicz (Morgiewicz/Morgovich. She was related to Shmuil Morgovich of Stakliskes.), and her dad was a Andrulevicus. He had relatives such as Vilgelm Andrulevich, Nik Andrelovich, Rochla Andrelewitz, and Jacob Andralowitz (who they sent a Jewish serviceman's card.)

How do you know they were all related? Just curious. My dad tried to find information about the Lithuanian / Belorussian part of his family, but most of the family records on that side had been burnt as a result of the Bolshevik Revolution and WW2 atrocities... He could only go as far back as the early twenties (i.e., within living memory).

Nickidewbear:

 Her mother was a Margiewicz

Morgiewicz / Margiewicz is also a Polish szlachta surname.

http://www.genealogiapolska.pl/search.php?mybool=AND&nr=50&tree=- x--all--x-&mylastname=margiewicz&lnqualify=contains&myfirstname=& mysuffix=

You seem to have a whole bunch of szlachta surnames in your family, all in all :-)
Of course, you might also be descended from the peasants who worked for and then were freed by these szlachta families, as it was the custom to grant such peasants the surname of their former master.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 02:06am  #

Magdalena:

Nickidewbear:"Danilowicz" simply means "ben-Daniel".

Daniłowicz is both a Russian and a Polish surname; they might even have belonged to the szlachta.

They didn't. Trust me; Pop-Pop tried that canard for years. He tried to connect us to Stefan Czarniecki for years, and he adamantly died that we are Jews . Then he changed his story to, "If we had any Jewish blood, I don't know about it."

Nickidewbear:She also gave her parents' names as "Anthony" and "Katherine"

Antoni and Katarzyna were very popular given names at the time, so there is no reason to believe she would be lying. E.g. every other woman in my father's family was baptised Katarzyna over a period of almost 100 years.

"Katherine" was also a variant of "Tillie". So were "Regina" and "Cecelia", and two of her girls had those names. She also believed in shidduch.

Nickidewbear:However, the Andrulevicuses were Jewish. Her mother was a Margiewicz (Morgiewicz/Morgovich. She was related to Shmuil Morgovich of Stakliskes.), and her dad was a Andrulevicus. He had relatives such as Vilgelm Andrulevich, Nik Andrelovich, Rochla Andrelewitz, and Jacob Andralowitz (who they sent a Jewish serviceman's card.)

How do you know they were all related? Just curious. My dad tried to find information about the Lithuanian / Belorussian part of his family, but most of the family records on that side had been burnt as a result of the Bolshevik Revolution and WW2 atrocities... He could only go as far back as the early twenties (i.e., within living memory).

"Andrulevicus" was exclusively from Stakliskes, and Great-Granddad was born in Tsuman because of his mom's route to and from Lipsk, Poland and Buzhanka in Kiev Gubernia (now Cherkas'ka oblast), Ukraine.

Nickidewbear: Her mother was a Margiewicz

Morgiewicz / Margiewicz is also a Polish szlachta surname.

http://www.genealogiapolska.pl/search.php?mybool=AND&nr=50&tree=-  x--all--x-&mylastname=margiewicz&lnqualify=contains&myfirstname=& mysuffix=

You seem to have a whole bunch of szlachta surnames in your family, all in all :-)
Of course, you might also be descended from the peasants who worked for and then were freed by these szlachta families, as it was the custom to grant such peasants the surname of their former master.

The peasant schtick is probably it. Pop-Pop would have been thrilled to have made the szlachta connection. He could never do it. He kept pulling the Stefan Czarniecki card and told the story of how Great-Granddad came here alone, married Great-Grandma, served in Korea, and died of Black Lung when Dad was 12-never the real story, of how he came as a boy with his parents, married a believing Jew (which made my Anusit great-great-grandma vomit [both figuratively and, I suppose, literally]-and actually literally try to mentally break down my great-grandma, the daughter of a Nagy-Trudnyak and Korsch-Munka who were Anusim), never served this country a day in his life, and committed suicide when Dad was four.

I never even knew that Great-Granddad's siblings existed, let alone that they were born here. Nor did I know that Aunt Mary was named for her grandmothers and not the Virgin-per minhag Sefardi, which my dad's atDNA attests to. Actually, Aunt Mary even said that Pop-Pop would fall asleep in the back of the church when they were younger-which I never would have guessed. Further, their Christmases were very secular-we read "The Night Before Christmas", not the Bible, for example.

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Magdalena    ♀Yesterday, 02:34am   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

They didn't. Trust me

But how can you tell one way or the other? Not to mention the fact that there were also Jewish szlachta in Poland, so they could be both.

Nickidewbear:

"Katherine" was also a variant of "Tillie". So were "Regina" and "Cecelia", and two of her girls had those names

I don't understand that part at all. Isn't Tillie a diminutive of Otylie?

Nickidewbear:

She also believed in shidduch.

Matchmaking was not exclusive to Jewish communities, you know.

Nickidewbear:

"Andrulevicus" was exclusively from Stakliskes, and Great-Granddad was born in Tsuman because of his mom's route to and from Lipsk, Poland and Buzhanka in Kiev Gubernia (now Cherkas'ka oblast), Ukraine.

Based on what information?

Nickidewbear:

Actually, Aunt Mary even said that Pop-Pop would fall asleep in the back of the church when they were younger-which I never would have guessed. Further, their Christmases were very secular-we read "The Night Before Christmas", not the Bible, for example.

That's not proof of anything. I am a baptised Catholic yet I never even go to church. ;-)

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Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 03:23am  #

Magdalena:

Nickidewbear:They didn't. Trust me

But how can you tell one way or the other? Not to mention the fact that there were also Jewish szlachta in Poland, so they could be both.

Nickidewbear:"Katherine" was also a variant of "Tillie". So were "Regina" and "Cecelia", and two of her girls had those names

I don't understand that part at all. Isn't Tillie a diminutive of Otylie?

Yes, but "Tillie" was used among quite a bit among Jews as a Yiddish name. "Katherine" was a secular form of "Tillie".

Nickidewbear:She also believed in shidduch.


Matchmaking was not exclusive to Jewish communities, you know.

Yes, but Catholics could marry for love. Jews weren't allowed to do so in the Old Country.

Nickidewbear:"Andrulevicus" was exclusively from Stakliskes, and Great-Granddad was born in Tsuman because of his mom's route to and from Lipsk, Poland and Buzhanka in Kiev Gubernia (now Cherkas'ka oblast), Ukraine.

Based on what information?

Based on Great-Granddad's Ellis Island record which says "Suman" and Vil'gel'm's voting information for the Duma that says that he lived in Buzhanaka.

Nickidewbear:Actually, Aunt Mary even said that Pop-Pop would fall asleep in the back of the church when they were younger-which I never would have guessed. Further, their Christmases were very secular-we read "The Night Before Christmas", not the Bible, for example.


That's not proof of anything. I am a baptised Catholic yet I never even go to church. ;-)

He faked being devout in my generation. Also, he was not buried in a Catholic cemetery. Furthermore, going to church for him was based on "tradition", not devotion.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 04:11am  #

Also, many Jews used gentile names. Furthermore, you say, "Czerniecki, Daniłowicz, Wierzbińska, and Kruszyńska, are 100% typical Polish surnames. the same goes for the given names - Paweł, Dominika, Wojciech, Maryanna, Antoni, and Katarzyna." "Maryanna" could have easily been "Maryam Hannah" or "Maryam Khannah". As for "Kruszynska", Jews who converted inSefarad took names like "de la Cruz", "de Jesus", and "de Santa Maria".

According to Ancestry.com, "Polish (Kruszynski): habitational name for someone from any of various places called Kruszyn, Kruszyna, or Kruszyny. These place names are probably from Polish dialect krusza 'pear tree' or from a derivative of kruszyc 'to crumble', 'fragment', or from a derivative of kruch 'block', 'lump'."

This may have well referred to the cross (tree/stake) as "de la Cruz" did; "kruch" could refer to the firstfruits or a special part of the matzah or lechem reserved for kohanim; or, in the case of "block", the cornerstone of the Temple. Anusim and Jews otherwise were clever like that.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 04:25am  #

Jewish Records Indexing - Poland

Jewish Records Indexing - Poland, Inc. is an independent non-profit tax exempt organization under section
501(c)(3) of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code. Contributions are tax-deductible in the U.S.A.
JRI-Poland is hosted by JewishGen.

Run on Tuesday 4 February 2014 at 20:24:48

Searching for Surname (phonetically like) KRUSZYNSKI
in Suwalki Gubernia
in ALL data

Bakalarzewo Births 1826-33,39-43,52-64,66,67,70-75,77-79,83
Marriages 1827-30,32-37,39-43,52-64,66,67,70-75,77-79,83
Deaths 1826-37,39-43,52-64,66,67,70-75,77-79,83
Suwalki Gubernia / Bialystok Province
Located at 54°06' 22°39'
Last updated December 2006

Surname Given Name Year Type Akta Father Father Surname Mother Mother Surname Mother's Father Microfilm
GUMBINER Szmojl/o 1840 M 3 Nisiel Asna Aronowna 746,481
KRUSZYN'SKA Dweura 1840 M 3 Hyrsz Enia 746,481
Suwalki Births 1827-28,30,32-40,42-51,53-54,56-67,69,72,73,75, 78-79,81-85
Marriages 1826-30,32,34-40,42-51,53-54,56-67,69,72,75,78-79,81-85
Deaths 1827-30,32,34-40,42-51,53-54,56-67,69,72,73,75, 78-79,81-85
Suwalki Gubernia / Bialystok Province
Located at 54°06' 22°56'
Last updated December 2006

Surname Given Name Year Type Akta Father Father Surname Mother Mother Surname Mother's Father Microfilm Comments
KRUCIN'SKI Mowsza Beniamin 1843 B 34 Abram Chaszka Rochla Hirszowna 752,620
KRUCIN'SKA Raszka 1845 B 18 Abram Rocha Hirszowna 752,620
KRUSIN'SKA Rywka 1850 B 54 Abram Chaszka Rocha Hirszowna 752,621
KRUSIN'SKI Mowsza Zyskind 1857 B 61 Elko Leja Berkowna 752,622
KRUSIN'SKI Lejba 1858 B 11 Abram Rejzla GLASLENDER 752,622
KRUSIN'SKA Rocha 1858 B 12 Abram Rejzla GLASLENDER 752,622
FLAXBYNDER Dawid Berko 1859 B 113 Chaim Peszka Gitla KRUSIN'SKA 752,622
KRUCIN'SKA Itka 1859 B 182 Lejba Dyna Liba Jechielowna 752,622
KRUSZYN'SKI Fiszko Berko 1859 B 203 Abram Rejza GLASLENDER 752,622
KRUSIN'SKI Jankiel Hirsz 1860 B 227 Elko Leja Berkowna 752,622
KRUCIN'SKI Dawid Szloma 1860 B 255 Hirsz Rejza Hirszowna 752,622
KRUCIN'SKI Wolf 1861 B 59 Lejba Dyna Liba Jechielowna 752,622
KANOWSKA Mal/ka 1861 B 163 Naftel Etka KRUCIN'SKA 752,622
KRUSIN'SKA Gisza 1862 B 25 Abram Rejza GLASLENDER 752,623
KANOWSKI Chackiel 1862 B 310 Nawtel Etka KRUCIN'SKA 752,623
KRUCIN'SKI Efroim 1867 B 2 Lejba Dyna Liba MARIAMPOLSKA 1,199,520
WYL/KOWIN'SKI Dawid 1872 B 163 Szmerko Necha KRUCIN'SKA 1,199,520
KRUSIN'SKA Chaja Rywka 1878 B 101 Lejba Sora Leja KORKLIN'SKA 1,496,954
JELENIEWSKA Rywka 1878 B 104 Mortchaj Gisza KRUSIN'SKA 1,496,954
JELENIEWSKA Chana 1878 B 105 Mortchaj Gisza KRUSIN'SKA 1,496,954
KRUCIN'SKA Gitla 1878 B 135 Tewia Chasza Rona BIRGER 1,496,954
KRUSIN'SKI Cal/ko Kal/man 1878 B 492 Lejba Sora Leja KARLIN'SKA 1,496,954
GRABOWSKA Chasza Rochla 1881 B 85 Josel Rywa KRUSZYN'SKA 1,496,954
GRABOWSKI Cal/ko 1881 B 86 Josel Rywa KRUSZYN'SKA 1,496,954
GRABOWSKI Elko 1881 B 87 Josel Rywa KRUSZYN'SKA 1,496,954
KRUSIN'SKI Mowsza Beniamin 1847 D 47 Abram Chaszka Rocha Hirszowna 752,620
KRUSIN'SKI Josiel Hirsz 1848 D 78 Abram Chaszka Rochla Hirszowna 752,621
KRUCIN'SKI Ajzyk 1856 D 51 Lejba Dyna Liba Jechielowna 752,622
KRUCIN'SKA Chaja Szpryntza 1864 D 80 Lejba Dyna Liba Jochelowna 752,623
KRUCIN'SKI Wo'lf 1865 D 70 Lejba Dyna Liba STAROPOLSKA 752,623
KRUCIN'SKI Icko 1867 D 59 Berek Frejga Frejda Nowachowna 1,199,520
KRUCIN'SKI Mowsza 1869 D 18 Berek Etka 1,199,520
JELENIEWSKI Beniamin Eliasz 1872 D 140 Mortchaj Gisza KRUSZYN'SKA 1,199,520
KRUSZYN'SKI Abram 1881 D 87 Berek Rochla 1,496,954
KRUCIN'SKA Sora 1885 D 95 Chackiel NERENSZTEJN Chiena 1,496,955
KRUSIN'SKI Elko 1844 M 28 Berko Rocha Josielowna 752,620
L/OPACIN'SKA Leja 1844 M 28 Berko Chana Jankielowna 752,620
PREJS Baszka 1849 M 18 Tobiasz Fejga Mendelowna 752,621
KRUCIN'SKI Chackiel 1849 M 18 Idzk Mal/ka Zyskindowna 752,621
JELENIEWSKI Morthaj 1849 M 37 Mowszo Chaja Eliaszowna 752,621
KRUSZYN'SKA Gisza 1849 M 37 Berek Rochla Josielowna 752,621
KANOWSKI Naftel 1860 M 2 Chaim Szejna Jankielowna 752,622
KRUCIN'SKA Etka 1860 M 2 Abram Frejda Josielowna 752,622
AMDURSKA Gitla 1867 M 23 Gierszon Chana BLUMENTHAL 1,199,520
KRUCIN'SKI Josiel 1867 M 23 Abram Frejda Josielowna 1,199,520
GRABOWSKI Josel 1881 M 22 Wolf Gita 1,496,954
KRUSZYN'SKA Ryfka 1881 M 22 Abram Chasza Rochla 1,496,954
KRUSZYN'SKI Fiszko Berko 1883 M 31 Abram Rejzla 1,496,955
KIRSZTEJN Basia Bluma 1883 M 31 Szlema Chaja Sora 1,496,955
KRUSIN'SKI Jankiel Hersz 1864 B 34 Elko Leja Berkowna 752,623
KRUSIN'SKA Gisza 1864 B 35 Elko Leja Berkowna 752,623
KRUCIN'SKA Chawa 1864 B 91 Hirsz Rejza Hirszowna 752,623
KRUCIN'SKA Merka 1864 B 92 Hirsz Rejza Hirszowna 752,623
KRUCIN'SKA Chana 1865 B 285 Lejba Dyna Liba STAROPOLSKA 752,623
KRUSIN'SKI Jankiel 1865 B 416 Abram Rejza GLASLENDER 752,623
Suwalki PSA Births, Marriages 1887,88,91-94,96 Deaths 1829,41,87,88,91-94,96
Suwalki Gubernia / Bialystok Province
(records in Fond 204 in Suwalki Archive)
Located at 54°06' 22°56'
Last updated March 2002

Surname Given Name Year Type Akta
KRUCINSKI Icko 1888 B 144
KRUCINSKI Szmul Lejb 1888 B 145
KRUCINSKI Chackel 1887 D 77
KRUSZYNSKA Mera 1888 D 29
KRUCINSKI Abram 1888 D 54
KRUSINSKI Szepszel Jankel 1896 D 24
Wizajny Births, Marriages, Deaths 1829-30,32-38,40-42,44-48,51-53,55-69,73-74,77,79-80
Suwalki Gubernia / Bialystok Province
Located at 54°22' 22°51'
Last updated December 2006

Surname Given Name Year Type Akta Father Father Surname Mother Mother Surname Mother's Father Microfilm
KRUCIN'SKI Lejba 1845 M 5 Jankiel Sprynca 752,654
MARIAMPOLSKA Dynka 1845 M 5 Jochel Chana 752,654

I'm thinking that an apology is in order.

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Magdalena    ♀Yesterday, 10:09am   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

I'm thinking that an apology is in order.

An apology for what exactly? For the fact that a surname is being used by both Jews and Gentiles? :-)
Of course Jews used many Polish names, they lived amongst Poles after all; but while I can list genealogical records showing these surnames were used by gentile Poles, and you can do the same for the Jews, there is still no hard evidence one way or the other, it seems. That's all I am saying. I'm not saying some of your ancestors were not Jewish, I'm just saying it's not really evident from the info in this thread.

Nickidewbear:

According to Ancestry.com, "Polish (Kruszynski): habitational name for someone from any of various places called Kruszyn, Kruszyna, or Kruszyny. These place names are probably from Polish dialect krusza 'pear tree' or from a derivative of kruszyc 'to crumble', 'fragment', or from a derivative of kruch 'block', 'lump'."

This may have well referred to the cross (tree/stake) as "de la Cruz" did; "kruch" could refer to the firstfruits or a special part of the matzah or lechem reserved for kohanim; or, in the case of "block", the cornerstone of the Temple. Anusim and Jews otherwise were clever like that.

With this type of reasoning, you could probably take any random surname from anywhere in the world and claim it is of Jewish origin. It would be much more realistic, I think, to accept that at least part of your ancestors were Polish gentiles. At least looking at the marriage certificate I translated, it sure seems that way.

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Harry   ♂Yesterday, 11:40am   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

 why would they fall out with their son if they were Catholic, since he and his wife converted to Catholicism? Also, they didn't fall out until after Great-Granddad was born.

There are literally a million reasons. Maybe he forgot his mother's birthday, maybe he cheated his father while playing cards, maybe his wife hated his mother. We simply don't know. But what we can say is that it is highly unlikely that they fell out with their son when he converted to Catholicism, given that the documentation we have shows them as being married as Catholics themselves.

Nickidewbear:

why would he have to lie so much on his naturalization, etc. documents?

Again, there are literally a million reasons. Maybe he was on the run after robbing a bank, maybe he'd always hated the name Daniel (or whatever), maybe the immigration officer wrote his name down wrong and he thought it would just be easier to use his new 'American' name on the documents, maybe he didn't lie at all and you're just looking at the documents wrong. We simply don't know. But what we can say is that it is highly unlikely that he was lying as a result of converting to Catholicism, given that the documentation we have shows his parents as being married as Catholics themselves.

Nickidewbear:

She would not have married a Catholic.

Interesting you say that. What basis do you have for saying that she wouldn't have married a Catholic, given that the documentation we have shows her as being married in a Catholic church as a Catholic.

Nickidewbear:

Yes, but Catholics could marry for love. Jews weren't allowed to do so in the Old Country.

It never ceases to amaze me that somebody can have read so much about Jews but know so little about them.

Magdalena:

 It would be much more realistic, I think, to accept that at least part of your ancestors were Polish gentiles.

But that's not the reality Nickie wants.

Reply    Quote

Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 04:30pm  #

Magdalena:

An apology for what exactly? For the fact that a surname is being used by both Jews and Gentiles? :-)
Of course Jews used many Polish names, they lived amongst Poles after all; but while I can list genealogical records showing these surnames were used by gentile Poles, and you can do the same for the Jews, there is still no hard evidence one way or the other, it seems. That's all I am saying. I'm not saying some of your ancestors were not Jewish, I'm just saying it's not really evident from the info in this thread.

All I'm saying is that their being married Catholic or even them being Catholic does not exclude their being Jewish. Jewishness is ethnic and/or religious. One does not exclude the other.

Nickidewbear:According to Ancestry.com, "Polish (Kruszynski): habitational name for someone from any of various places called Kruszyn, Kruszyna, or Kruszyny. These place names are probably from Polish dialect krusza 'pear tree' or from a derivative of kruszyc 'to crumble', 'fragment', or from a derivative of kruch 'block', 'lump'."

This may have well referred to the cross (tree/stake) as "de la Cruz" did; "kruch" could refer to the firstfruits or a special part of the matzah or lechem reserved for kohanim; or, in the case of "block", the cornerstone of the Temple. Anusim and Jews otherwise were clever like that.

With this type of reasoning, you could probably take any random surname from anywhere in the world and claim it is of Jewish origin. It would be much more realistic, I think, to accept that at least part of your ancestors were Polish gentiles. At least looking at the marriage certificate I translated, it sure seems that way.

Well, there are still many "lost" Jews, as Shavei Israel calls many Anusim and bnei-Anusim. Also, in Ezekiel 44, for example, it reads:

28 "It shall be, in regard to their inheritance, that I am their inheritance. You shall give them no possession in Israel, for I am their possession. 29 They shall eat the grain offering, the sin offering, and the trespass offering; every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs. 30 The best of all firstfruits of any kind, and every sacrifice of any kind from all your sacrifices, shall be the priest's; also you shall give to the priest the first of your ground meal, to cause a blessing to rest on your house. 31 The priests shall not eat anything, bird or beast, that died naturally or was torn by wild beasts.

In another translation, it reads,

28 "'Their inheritance is to be this: I myself am their inheritance. You are not to grant them any possession in Isra'el - I myself am their possession. 29 They are to eat the grain offerings, sin offerings and guilt offerings; and everything in Isra'el devoted [to God] will be theirs. 30 The first of all the firstfruits of everything, and every voluntary contribution of everything, from all your offerings, will be for the cohanim. You are also to give the cohen the first of your dough, so that a blessing will rest on your house. 31 The cohanim are not to eat anything, bird or animal, that dies naturally or is torn to death.

"The first of your dough" could refer to a lump of dough, going back to the meaning of "lump". See, e.g., Genealoj.

Reply    Quote

Nickidewbear    ♀Edited by: Nickidewbear  Yesterday, 04:41pm  #

Harry:

Nickidewbear: why would they fall out with their son if they were Catholic, since he and his wife converted to Catholicism? Also, they didn't fall out until after Great-Granddad was born.
There are literally a million reasons. Maybe he forgot his mother's birthday, maybe he cheated his father while playing cards, maybe his wife hated his mother. We simply don't know. But what we can say is that it is highly unlikely that they fell out with their son when he converted to Catholicism, given that the documentation we have shows them as being married as Catholics themselves.

You want cut-and-dry realities. It doesn't work that way. Sometimes, Jews even witnessed baptisms.

Nickidewbear:why would he have to lie so much on his naturalization, etc. documents?
Again, there are literally a million reasons. Maybe he was on the run after robbing a bank, maybe he'd always hated the name Daniel (or whatever), maybe the immigration officer wrote his name down wrong and he thought it would just be easier to use his new 'American' name on the documents, maybe he didn't lie at all and you're just looking at the documents wrong. We simply don't know. But what we can say is that it is highly unlikely that he was lying as a result of converting to Catholicism, given that the documentation we have shows his parents as being married as Catholics themselves.

If he robbed a bank, he would've been extradited and/or deported from the U.S..

Nickidewbear:She would not have married a Catholic.
Interesting you say that. What basis do you have for saying that she wouldn't have married a Catholic, given that the documentation we have shows her as being married in a Catholic church as a Catholic.

She (Alexandria) was an Orthodox Jew. Learn to read.

Nickidewbear:Yes, but Catholics could marry for love. Jews weren't allowed to do so in the Old Country.
It never ceases to amaze me that somebody can have read so much about Jews but know so little about them.

We weren't. You either did shidduch or you didn't marry. Marrying for love in Orthodox Judaism was avodah zarah, "idolizing" romantic love over kiddushin.

Magdalena: It would be much more realistic, I think, to accept that at least part of your ancestors were Polish gentiles.
But that's not the reality Nickie wants.

You don't want reality, Harry. What you want is reality to fit your mold. It doesn't. Again, it isn't cut and dry.

Reply    Quote

Harry   ♂Yesterday, 05:00pm   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

You want cut-and-dry realities. It doesn't work that way. Sometimes, Jews even witnessed baptisms.

The reality is that when a couple get married by a Catholic priest, at least one of them is a Catholic. Back then almost always both of them were. And back then, a non-Catholic partner had to promise during the wedding that their children would be brought up as Catholics, meaning that their son could not have converted to Catholicism: he would have been brought up as a Catholic.

Nickidewbear:

If he robbed a bank, he would've been extradited and/or deported from the U.S..

Which is precisely why he would want to lie about his name (and quite possibly other details about his past). Maybe he lied to conceal his Jewish past (the one which involved being brought up as a Catholic), maybe he lied for a million other reasons, maybe he actually told the truth: you simply do not know (although you can be pretty sure that as he was brought up as a Catholic, having a Jewish past most probably isn't the reason).

Nickidewbear:

She (Alexandria) was an Orthodox Jew. Learn to read.

An orthodox Jew who married a Catholic would be shunned by the community.

Nickidewbear:

 You either did shidduch or you didn't marry. Marrying for love in Orthodox Judaism was avodah zarah,

Since when were all Jews Orthodox?

Nickidewbear:

You don't want reality, Harry. What you want is reality to fit your mold. It doesn't. Again, it isn't cut and dry.

Frankly Nickie, I couldn't care less whether your ancestors were Jews, Catholics, Zulus, shape-shifting aliens from the planet Tharg, whatever. What I would like is for you to get better, for you to be happier, and I really do not think that you obsessing about a past where for many generations your father's family have engaged in a conspiracy to hide the truth from you is doing you any good at all.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 05:39pm  #

Harry:

Nickidewbear:You want cut-and-dry realities. It doesn't work that way. Sometimes, Jews even witnessed baptisms.
The reality is that when a couple get married by a Catholic priest, at least one of them is a Catholic. Back then almost always both of them were. And back then, a non-Catholic partner had to promise during the wedding that their children would be brought up as Catholics, meaning that their son could not have converted to Catholicism: he would have been brought up as a Catholic.

That doesn't mean that they kept those promises. Also, again, Maćkowa was small enough not to have a chief "rabbi".

Nickidewbear:If he robbed a bank, he would've been extradited and/or deported from the U.S..
Which is precisely why he would want to lie about his name (and quite possibly other details about his past). Maybe he lied to conceal his Jewish past (the one which involved being brought up as a Catholic), maybe he lied for a million other reasons, maybe he actually told the truth: you simply do not know (although you can be pretty sure that as he was brought up as a Catholic, having a Jewish past most probably isn't the reason).

Poland and Russia would have demanded him back had he stolen anything from a bank. The law was stricter back then. Also,

Nickidewbear:She (Alexandria) was an Orthodox Jew. Learn to read.
An orthodox Jew who married a Catholic would be shunned by the community.

That's the point. They were Jews when they married. Granduncle Tony explicitly wrote:

my emphasis (bold):

Periodically a church pastor would run a heritage trip back to Poland for a group. Very few of those who immigrated would return. Occasionally someone "in the family" in America would join a relative for the return trip, Usually meeting the Polish or Slovak relatives for the first time and occasionally maintaining a letter writing relationship afterwards. This DID NOT happen in our family.

There was not very much correspondence with the Polish family. Only an infrequent letter. There were no exchanges other than through the Polish Church which would have clothing drives and send clothes to Poland in general, but not to specific family members. Bertha's photos which came after the trips were the only contact until they asked for the deed to be changed in the mid 1960's.

They were shunned.

Nickidewbear: You either did shidduch or you didn't marry. Marrying for love in Orthodox Judaism was avodah zarah,
Since when were all Jews Orthodox?

You were either Orthodox, Karaite, or "meshumad". Reform (Neolog), Conservative (Masorti), and other denominations of Judaism were not founded until the 18th-20th Centuries.

Nickidewbear:You don't want reality, Harry. What you want is reality to fit your mold. It doesn't. Again, it isn't cut and dry.
Frankly Nickie, I couldn't care less whether your ancestors were Jews, Catholics, Zulus, shape-shifting aliens from the planet Tharg, whatever. What I would like is for you to get better, for you to be happier, and I really do not think that you obsessing about a past where for many generations your father's family have engaged in a conspiracy to hide the truth from you is doing you any good at all.

I never said that it was a conspiracy, and I could get you prosecuted for criminal libel for suggesting that I have a mental illness. What I said is that they deliberately hid and lied about our past. I didn't say for conspiratorial reasons, though I did say that it was wrong. Again, you want cut-and-dry reality. Especially for Anusim, it doesn't work that way. Fine case-in-point example:

It is difficult to generalize about all descendants of conversos. Naturally, no "*marrano" Judaism existed in the Peninsula. Various customs and different prayers developed among different groups. In certain areas, however, a very strong "Jewish" identity remained until almost modern times. That is why we have recently witnessed the return of many Crypto-Jews in Belmonte, in northern Portugal, to Judaism and why so many descendants of conversos left Spain and Portugal and joined existing Jewish communities or formed their own after their return to normative Judaism.

Also, a kohein recently found out that he is a kohein:

Aoflko's mother told him that she and his father were Polish Jews whose families perished in the Auschwitz concentration camp. Fearing post-war anti-Semitism in Poland, they decided to hide their identities and pass themselves off as Catholics.

Getting married in a shul, say, in Krasnopol or Sejny may have subjected them to persecution, etc.. For example, they could've been murdered on the way home:

ANUSIM (Heb. אֲנוּסִים; "forced ones"), persons compelled by overwhelming pressure, whether by physical threats, psychological stress, or economic sanctions, to abjure Judaism and adopt a different faith.

Also,

The community hesitated for three days before making a decision. Finally the majority, some 500, accepted Christianity. The Christians in Clermont greeted the event with rejoicing: "Candles were lit, the lamps shone, the whole city radiated with the light of the snow-white flock" (i.e., the forced converts). The Jews who preferred exile left for *Marseilles (Gregory of Tours, Histories, 5:11) The poet Venantius Fortunatus composed a poem to commemorate the occasion. In 582 the Frankish king Chilperic compelled numerous Jews to adopt Christianity. Again the anusim were not wholehearted in their conversion, for "some of them, cleansed in body but not in heart, denied God, and returned to their ancient perfidy, so that they were seen keeping the Sabbath, as well as Sunday" (ibid., 6:17).

Not everyone could handle the "physical threats, psychological stress, or economic sanctions," especially in a small town where their Jewishness and Judaism would stick out like a sore thumb.






Ashkenazim were well aware of what their Sefardi brothers and sisters went through. In fact, many Ashkenazim are descended from Sefardim who fled Sefarad.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Yesterday, 11:23pm  #

Harry:

Nickidewbear:That doesn't mean that they kept those promises.
But the balance of probabilities is that they did. Just as the balance of probabilities is that their son did not convert to Catholicism but was actually brought up a Catholic.

Nickidewbear:Also, again, Maćkowa was small enough not to have a chief "rabbi".
a) Says who?
b) What was stopping them getting one in for a planned event?
c) You really think that they thought 'Sod getting a rabbi in for the wedding, we'll just get the Catholic priest to do it'? Really?

a) Small towns didn't have chiefs "rabbis".
b) Did you not read about Anusim?
c) Yes. In fact, a set of great-great-great-great grandparents converted to Catholicism to marry and avoid Anti Semitism. They lived the rest of their lives in a small town where there were only three open Jews in 1887.

Nickidewbear:Poland and Russia would have demanded him back had he stolen anything from a bank. The law was stricter back then.
a) No they wouldn't: they couldn't, there was no extradition treaty for bank robbery between the USA and Russia back then.
b) They wouldn't have known he was there if he lied about his name.

They would've looked for him. Also, Russians hated Poles and Jews, and they did "Jew hunts" for no good reason all of the time.

Nickidewbear:You were either Orthodox, Karaite, or "meshumad". Reform (Neolog), Conservative (Masorti), and other denominations of Judaism were not founded until the 18th-20th Centuries.
This wedding was in 1840, so 140 years after you say other denominations of Judaism were first founded.

a) Reform Judaism didn't take off until the Middle 1800s in Western Europe, and it rarely happened in Slovakia, etc.; and it rarely, if it all, happened in the Russian Empire, the hotbed of Lubavitchi Judaism.
b) Conservative Judaism broke from Reform Judaism.
c) Reconstructionist Judaism was founded around 1920, when Mordechai Kaplan broke with both Orthodox and Conservative Judaism.

Nickidewbear: I could get you prosecuted for criminal libel for suggesting that I have a mental illness.
a) No I didn't say that.
b) No you can't.
c) Even if I had and you could, as Jon, points out, you've posted certain information both here and elsewhere.

a) You implied it.

b) Having OCD/Anxiety, Depression, and ADD is way different than having, e.g., delusional paranoia.

c) I can share my own information; thank you.

I accepted that the certificate is theirs once it was translated, and I was able to catch nuances in it.

Please keep your thread on topic, thank you

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Nickidewbear    ♀Edited by: Nickidewbear  Today, 01:18am  #

Mod's comment:

Please keep your thread on topic, thank you

I was; I just had a legitimate question: "Why would they fall out with their son if they were Catholic, since he and his wife converted to Catholicism? Also, they didn't fall out until after Great-Granddad was born. Furthermore, why would he have to lie so much on his naturalization, etc. documents?" To be honest, I think that someone is mistaken or lying: either Google Translate is or Magdalena is, or Maciej found a document with the same names that Great-Great-Granddad gave but with people who different people. I can't tell who. Also, that they married Catholic doesn't preclude them from being Jewish if they are the right people.

The translation that Google came up with is, ""I think that so even sure these are not Catholics but only so much I found :)" for ""Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy no ale tylko tyle znalazlem:)". I also typed "no" in for Polish and got the following in English:

well
No!-interjection
Well!
No!, Więc!, Ano!, Ale!, Aha!, He!

I just want to make sure that I'm getting an honest translation. Also, when I talked to someone else about whether "priest" could be "rabbi", he said:

Hi,
ks. W. Olszewski e.g. Wojciech Olszewski was the catholic priest of parish Wigry till 9th June 1875.

So he couldn't be rabbi.

http://wigry.diecezja.elk.pl/historia-parafii/historia-w-latach-1 800-1946.html?start=4

I've never seen such certificate till now, but seems to me peculiar that although it was the religious marriage there are nothing about the groom and bride were Catholic or not.
But maybe it was something obvious for the priest and he didn't mention this.

[I had asked:]
When the certificate says, "priest", does it mean "rabbi" perchance? From what a cousin told me, this was a Non-Catholic certificate.

Why would they not mention if the parents were Catholic, too? Also, banns being a week apart fits well into line with openly-Jewish and Anusi practice. That's all that I'm saying.

Reply    Quote

pam   ♀ ModeratorToday, 01:28am  #

Nickidewbear:

To be honest, I think that someone is mistaken or lying: either Google Translate is or Magdalena is,

Google translate is not that reliable. At all.
Why would Magdalena lie? She translated that certificate, she was trying to help you.

Nickidewbear:

 ""Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy no ale tylko tyle znalazlem:)"

The translation Magdalena gave for this sentence is correct.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 01:41am  #

pam:

Nickidewbear:To be honest, I think that someone is mistaken or lying: either Google Translate is or Magdalena is,

Google translate is not that reliable. At all.
Why would Magdalena lie? She translated that certificate, she was trying to help you.

She, Harry, and Jon have had problems with that my family history doesn't fit the mold for how a Jew's history normally fits. So, she could be lying to me in order to affect me to think something different, since she is fluent in Polish and I have no clue what is being said. So, she could be trying to dupe me. And anyway, I asked the mod.

Nickidewbear: ""Mysle ze tak a nawet napewno to sa katolicy no ale tylko tyle znalazlem:)"

The translation Magdalena gave for this sentence is correct.

How do I know? And Google Translate is not perfect but is reliable for the basics. Also, you conveniently dodged the point of when I talked to someone else about whether "priest" could be "rabbi". He stated point blankly, "I've never seen such certificate till now, but seems to me peculiar that although it was the religious marriage there are nothing about the groom and bride were Catholic or not. But maybe it was something obvious for the priest and he didn't mention this."

I know that in Hungarian Slovakia, a set of great-great-great-great-grandparents who were Catholic had to be "acquitted" to marry because they were ethnic Jews whose conversion the priest highly doubted (since they really were Anusim and not genuine converts). My cousin, who would loved if that side wasn't Jewish, told me that the Hungarian word meant "acquitted", and he's a pretty-honest guy-he wasn't happy at all that he had to concede that I figured out what happened on that side.

[Page 2]

pam   ♀ ModeratorToday, 01:49am  #

Nickidewbear:

she could be lying to me in order to affect me to think something different, since she is fluent in Polish and I have no clue what is being said.

What she wrote was truthful.
I understand Polish well enough to confirm this, and I don't have any reason to lie to you whatsoever.

Nickidewbear:

 And Google Translate is not perfect but is reliable for the basics.

Not by a long shot it isn't. We wouldn't have so many posters asking questions about Polish language if Google translate was that reliable.

Nickidewbear:

 Also, you conveniently dodged the point of when I talked to someone else about whether "priest" could be "rabbi".

I'm not trying to dodge anything. The only reason I commented was to confirm that Magdalena was correct in her translation, nothing more.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 01:58am  #

pam:

Nickidewbear:she could be lying to me in order to affect me to think something different, since she is fluent in Polish and I have no clue what is being said.

What she wrote was truthful.
I understand Polish well enough to confirm this, and I don't have any reason to lie to you whatsoever.

I'm not saying that you do. I'm saying that she might.

Nickidewbear: And Google Translate is not perfect but is reliable for the basics.

Not by a long shot it isn't. We wouldn't have so many posters asking questions about Polish language if Google translate was that reliable.

Then why do I get so many hits saying that is reliable for the basic gist?

Nickidewbear: Also, you conveniently dodged the point of when I talked to someone else about whether "priest" could be "rabbi".

I'm not trying to dodge anything. The only reason I commented was to confirm that Magdalena was correct in her translation, nothing more.

That's an important point, though. A native Polophone who I trust says that he's never seen a certificate like that for Catholics.

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Vincent   ♂ ModeratorToday, 02:05am  #

Nickidewbear:

I think that someone is mistaken or lying: either Google Translate is or Magdalena is

Nickidewbear you seem very ungrateful, asking for a translation then calling the translator a liar.

Nickidewbear:

So, she could be lying to me in order to affect me to think something different, since she is fluent in Polish and I have no clue what is being said. So, she could be trying to dupe me.

She's a bit more than fluent as I believe she's a professional translator/interpreter and would have no reason to lie to you. Most people would be very grateful that she has given up her time to help them.

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pam   ♀ ModeratorToday, 02:08am  #

Nickidewbear:

I'm not saying that you do. I'm saying that she might.

She was kind enough to translate that marriage certificate for you when she didn't have to.
I find it hard to understand that you think she would then lie about that sentence. To what end?
And the sentence is correct whatever you might think.

Nickidewbear:

Then why do I get so many hits saying that is reliable for the basic gist?

I use it for translation of a few words here and there.
When it comes to sentences, in my opinion it's more often wrong than right.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 03:34am  #

Vincent:

Nickidewbear:I think that someone is mistaken or lying: either Google Translate is or Magdalena is

Nickidewbear you seem very ungrateful, asking for a translation then calling the translator a liar.

Conveniently, you omitted the part where I said that she could be fooling me because she speaks the language and I don't. If I wanted to lie to someone who is not fluent in English, I could. But I wouldn't.

Nickidewbear:So, she could be lying to me in order to affect me to think something different, since she is fluent in Polish and I have no clue what is being said. So, she could be trying to dupe me.

She's a bit more than fluent as I believe she's a professional translator/interpreter and would have no reason to lie to you. Most people would be very grateful that she has given up her time to help them.

She would. More than numerous times, she has said that those with Polish names and Catholics can't be Jews, much less passers or Anusim. I also said, "Ok. Thanks." and brought up a legitimate question. I don't just accept things at face value. If that's the kind of person that she and you want, then that's certainly not what you're getting from me.

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Nickidewbear    ♀Today, 03:50am  #

pam:

Nickidewbear:I'm not saying that you do. I'm saying that she might.


She was kind enough to translate that marriage certificate for you when she didn't have to.
I find it hard to understand that you think she would then lie about that sentence. To what end?
And the sentence is correct whatever you might think.

And how do I know? She's not one of these people that I can exactly trust. I had a legitimate question, and she dodged with, "they could have quarrelled with their son for any number of reasons, don't you think? and how could he convert to Catholicism if he was clearly born to Catholic parents? as to naturalisation documents, they were filled out by Ellis Island officials who wrote down whatever they thought they heard the immigrants say, or just wrote down what they thought was right, esp. regarding names and surnames. many immigrants were illiterate or half illiterate, so they then made further spelling mistakes in their names as time went on."

If he was born Catholic, why did he marry a Jew? Also, why did he fall out with his parents for converting? Why did his son and grandson marry Jews? Why does Dad's atDNA show Middle Eastern ("Caucaus" and West Asian) DNA? Besides, in Poland, you either intramarried, converted, or were excommunicated.

Nickidewbear:Then why do I get so many hits saying that is reliable for the basic gist?



I use it for translation of a few words here and there.
When it comes to sentences, in my opinion it's more often wrong than right.

Your opinion seems to contradict with the evidence, though; and then I get the rapsheet when I bring up evidence that points to something? I'm sorry for you that I'm not the mold-fitting Jew; and if something seems questionable and agenda pushed, I'm going to bring it up.

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TheOther   ♂Today, 03:51am   ☓  #

Nickidewbear:

I don't just accept things at face value.

You will always hit a brick wall in your research unless you at least consider the possibility that you and your family are NOT Jewish. Got no documents, got no proof - that's how genealogy works. But I told you that already back in 2009 or so...

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Nickidewbear    ♀Edited by: Nickidewbear  Today, 04:15am  #

TheOther:

You will always hit a brick wall in your research unless you at least consider the possibility that you and your family are NOT Jewish. Got no documents, got no proof - that's how genealogy works. But I told you that already back in 2009 or so...

I actually do have documents, some of which I found myself and some of which others found for me. Besides, in those days, you converted "up" and not "down" unless you wanted to face severe persecution. Let's look at the Andruleviches, for example: some Anusim, some open Jews. If you don't believe me, you can go look them up yourself. Also, one (e.g., being married Catholic) does not preclude the other (e.g., being ethnically Jewish):

JewishGen Lithuania Database:

Run on Wednesday 5 February 2014 at 19:55:50

Surname Given Name Father Occupation
Address
Telephone # Year Page # Comments Town
Uyezd
Gubernia Publication Type
ANDRELOVICH Nik

Dvortsovaya Street, 4
1915 7
Vilnius
Vilnius
Vilnius Vsia Vilna (City Direc

JewishGen Ukraine Database:

Searching for Surname (phonetically like) Andrulevich
Number of hits: 1
Run on Wednesday 5 February 2014 at 19:57:46

Name Patronymic Year /
Number Qualifications Town (type)
Street Uyezd
District Age
Nationality

ANDRULEVICH, Vil'gel'm Ser. 1906 / 56 Po promysl.nalogu Buzhanka (s.)
Zvenigorodka

Ancestry.com Ellis Island Record:

Name: Rochla Andrelewitz
Arrival Date: 2 Sep 1907
Birth Date: abt 1885
Birth Location Other: Wilna
Age: 22
Gender: Female
Ethnicity/ Nationality: Hebrew
Port of Departure: Antwerp, Belgium
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Kroonland

By the way, a Jewish Danilovich named Anton (as if Jews can't have Polish names):

JewishGen Lithuania Database:

DANILOVICH, Anton

Polnaya Street
Kalvarija Kalvarija
Suwalki Street Directory - Home Owners
1908 

Again, it's not all cut and dry. Jews can be Catholics, and vice versa. My branch became Jewish Catholics for whatever reason. I may not be the smartest person, but I'm not stupid. Also, I didn't wake up one morning and decide, "Hmmm. I'm going to make up this ******** story." I didn't even know that Great-Granddad's parents came over here. By the way, "he spoke perfect English" (as my granduncle Tony said) and my great-great-granddad conveniently did not remember what ship he was on, gave 3-4 different birth years, lied about most of his kids' birthdates (either that; or they all lied), and gave both May and November as his immigration dates. He could also write.

On his draft card, he gave 1877. 

Pretty sloppy for someone who didn't want to lie.

Also, this record made the June 26th date check out for Great-Great-Grandma:

JewishGen Lithuania database:

Searching for Surname (phonetically like) Morgovich
Number of hits: 1
Run on Wednesday 5 February 2014 at 20:14:44

Name Father
Mother
Spouse Residence
Comments Date of Death
DD/MM/YY
Hebrew Date
Age
Cause of Death Town
Uyezd
Guberniya Place Recorded
Year
Record # Microfilm
Item
Image
Archive / Fond

MORGOVICH, Shmuil Movsha
- -
- - Merech [Merkine]
- 4/4/1882
15 Nisan 5642
20
tuberculosis Stakliskes
Trakai
Vilnius Stakliskes, Aukstadvaris rabbinate
1882
M4 2205094
3
1024
LVIA/9858

Had that record not come up, I would have continued to question Great-Great-Grandma's birthdate. I would have no reason to lie about what my family did.

• 
  Here, his wife gives 1879. Quite convenient when he gave 1876 and 1877.