Keeping Mitzvot Is Causing Others To Stumble? Since When?

Truth may absolutely hurt, but.... For example, a friend asked why some consider him or her to be part of the Hebrew Roots and/or Sacred Movement cults. I replied, "To be fair, I think that they're just being honest. To want to keep all 613 mitzvot (some of which are in contradistinction to the New Covenant) is one thing, but to tell others to keep Torah lest they be pagan or not living for Yehovah is another." Now, do I--for example--keep at least some of the 613 mitzvot? Yes. For example, I do try to wear my tallit every day, and I looked up (for a lack of better wordage) tallit etiquette and answers to questions that I had about wearing a tallit (Remember that my family were and are Anusim.). But am I going to tell others to wear a tallit? No.

In fact, someone bluntly told me the followi

ng after I answered his question about whether I'm Messianic, and asked if he wanted a Messianic to further support his business: "It sounds like you are asking me in good faith, with pure intentions and not just trying to pick a fight, so I will be straight with you. I have struggled with that question for a while, and have not achieved crystal clarity. To be honest, I would prefer not to sell a tallit with tzitzit. I don't see why a Christian, regardless of their enthusiasm for biblical practices, needs kosher tzitzit. However, if a Christian is really serious, really wants to keep the mitzvah of tzitzit, is willing to take the trouble to learn to tie the tzitzit and spend an hour doing it, then I don't really have any grounds to object."

So, trying to keep all 613 mitzvot, including the mitzvah l'tzitziyot, may actually even cause Non-Messianic Jews to stumble. In other words, if you're going to keep the mitzvot that are still valid under the New Covenant, don't be legalistic lest cause anyone to stumble with them.

Is "How Do You Like Me Now?!" Actually A Mean Song?

An excerpt from the lyrics:

When I took off to Tennessee

I heard that you made fun of me

Never imagined I'd make it this far
Then you married into money[,] girl

Ain't it a cruel and funny world?

He took your dreams and [he] tore them apart.
He never comes home

And you're always alone

And your kids hear you cryin' down the hall
Alarm clock starts ringin'

Who could that be singin'

It's me[,] baby, with your wake up call!
How do you like me now?

How do you like me now,

Now that I'm on my way?

Do you still think I'm crazy

Standin' here today?

I couldn't make you love me

But I always dreamed about living in your radio

How do you like me now?

Another excerpt:

[Yeah,] I was always the crazy one
I broke into the stadium 
And I wrote your number on the 50 yard line
You were always the perfect one
And the valedictorian[,] so
Under your number[,] I wrote "call for a good time"

[And] I only wanted to [get] your attention
But you overlooked me somehow

So we can see that:

1. He started the trouble with criminal trespass, vandalism, and publication of another party's personal information with a malicious intent to do so, and he has the hutzpah to complain about her overlooking him.
2. He's not very forgiving.
3. He's vengeful and vindictive.

Not that I'm perfect, and not that Toby Keith's a Christian (or at least acting like a Christian at the present time, anyway); nonetheless, this song of Toby Keith's penmanship goes against everything Biblical. For example:

• Romans 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 
• Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
• Psalm 83:16 Fill their faces with shame,That they may seek Your name, O Lord.

By the way, the context of Psalm 83 is that David desires to Israel should be avenged against Anti Semites. Toby Keith acts toward his former crush as if she put him through what Anti Semites have put Israel through over countless years-- and yet David is more forgiving. As a last resort, David wants for legitimate enemies of Israel (who never even did any bad to many of the Anti Semites in the first place), that they "be confounded and dismayed forever;Yes, let them be put to shame and perish, That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord, Are the Most High over all the earth." 

Toby Keith acts as if his former crush was a Nazi who put countless Jews and gentiles, including Corrie ten Boom, through an inexplicable amount of pain. Yet, many of us have been perhaps beyond forgiving and even forgetful in some ways (for example, in buying Mercedes Benzes and hosting ".de" domain websites), and Corrie ten Boom forgave her former Nazi captor. By the way, the L-rd has the right to hate and laugh at the wicked; we do not, since we are human and imperfect; and even the L-rd does not desire that anyone should perish (See Ezekiel 33:11 and 2 Peter 3:8-9.), though He predestines (See Romans 9:10-24.). 

Here's the video for itself, though, so that you can judge for yourself:

Repost: Moshe Looked To Torah Shel Brit Chadashah, and Legalistic "Messianic Judaism" Is Not Jewish

"Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them, if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering..."

Those who insist on keeping all 613 mitzvot make the blood worthless ("For it is impossible for those who...fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.", as Hebrews 6 partly reads.). They like to play pick-and-choose mitzvotwhile under grace, since they cannot possibly go to the Temple and offer akorban l'kippur.

Besides, "the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.", as Hebrews 10 partly reads.

To advocate that keeping all 613 mitzvot while under grace is a mitzvah, is a sin. Legalism is sin, and "if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Christmas Isn't A Time To Forsake the Truth For "Good Tidings"...

In fact, truth is a good tiding. Too often we forget that what came is "[w]oe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Remember that "He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. " For "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

The darkness and those of darkness do not want the truth and light. They don't want to comprehend them. For "[y]et the LORD has not given [them] a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day." That doesn't mean truth is to be forsaken:

Isaiah 43:8-9

New King James Version (NKJV)

⁸ Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
      And the deaf who have ears.
       ⁹ Let all the nations be gathered together,
      And let the people be assembled.
      Who among them can declare this,
      And show us former things?
      Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
      Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.” 


Every forsaker of truth will be repaid:

Psalm 69:22-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

 ²² Let their table become a snare before them,
         And their well-being a trap.
 ²³ Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see;
         And make their loins shake continually.


And 

Psalm 118:22

New King James Version (NKJV)

 ²² The stone which the builders rejected
         Has become the chief cornerstone.


Also as written:

Luke 20:13-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

¹³ “Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son. Probably they will respect him when they see him.’ ¹⁴ But when the vinedressers saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.’ ¹⁵ So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them? ¹⁶ He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.”
And when they heard it they said, “Certainly not!”
¹⁷ Then He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written:


      ‘ The stone which the builders rejected
      Has become the chief cornerstone’?
 ¹⁸ Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

      

What Does "Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged" Really Mean?

Luke 6:37-38

³⁷ “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. ³⁸ Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.” 

So is Jesus contradictory when he says the following?

Leviticus 19:15-16

¹⁵ ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor. ¹⁶ You shall not go about as a talebearer among your people; nor shall you take a stand against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD. 

And

Leviticus 20:1-3

 ¹ Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, ² “Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. ³ I will set My face against that man, and will cut him off from his people, because he has given some of his descendants to Molech, to defile My sanctuary and profane My holy name.

Leviticus 19:15-16 calls for that "[y]ou shall do no injustice in judgment... In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor". Meanwhile, Leviticus 20:1-3 calls for that "'[w]hoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death.'" Isn't that judging (Leviticus 19:15-16) and taking a stand against the life of a neighbor (Leviticus 20:1-3)?

So what does "Judge not" mean, besides that Jesus is not at all contradictory? Don't be a hypocrite! After all, "...He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way." (Job 34:11); and "...if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is." (1 Corinthians 3:12-13)

So, judge but don't be a hypocrite. "[']For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.'" Paul then was not contradictory when he said the following about a young Corinthian national:

1 Corinthians 5 (Emphasis mine)

Immorality Defiles the Church

 ¹ It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named^[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! ²And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. ³ For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. ⁴ In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, ⁵ deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.^[b]
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? ⁷Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.^[c] 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged

   
⁹ I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. ¹⁰ Yet Icertainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. ¹¹ But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 
¹² For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? ¹³ But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”^[d]

Not All Messianic Jews Proselytize; Yet Even Saying That One Is Messianic Gets Accusations of Such Proselytizing Intent....

For example, you can see that all I'm doing is even asking Shani to consider Messianic Judaism only when he brings up, among other things, "Personally, without scholars like Levine, attempting, out of curiously, to read the Greek scriptures has been bad for my blood pressure." As for Adam Kratt, I don't even come in and say or anything to him. He comes in as an Antimissionary macher with a clear persecutory agenda.


Sadly, one can't even disclose that he or she is a Messianic Jew without the intent to proselytize (and with the intent to do quite the opposite-- that is, let each fellow Jew believe as he or she will not proselytize

This annotated N.T. is likely to be little more than multi-colored higher criticism. A more useful tool for gaining understanding of the N.T. is by David H. Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary. It is the companion to His Jewish New Testament. His comments are clear and well grounded doctrinally. If someone wants to grasp the core of the N.T. with Hebraic background and sound exposition, read Stern’s work. You will not be disappointed!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 11/26/11 at 7:55 pm

So glad “pastor phil” infiltrates a Jewish paper with the promotion of material attempting to convert Jews to Christianity.  From Wikipedia: Stern lives in Jerusalem and is active in Israel’s Messianic Jewish community.

Pastor Phil, if you had any guts you’d be promoting Christianity to Muslims - course if you did that you might very well end up being stoned to death along with a bunch of raped women and gays.

Comment by george on 11/27/11 at 11:57 pm

Dear “george”: It is refreshing to see you confirm your vitriol in public. David Stern happens to understand the Scriptures. The tone of your comment reflects the hardness of your heart since you have made your comment personal. This shows that you do not follow Scripture. We are called to love our neighbor. Yes? My heart is for Israel, all Jews, & Jerusalem. In my ministry I constantly defend the Biblical authority for Israel to be the land. Anyone who reads and grasps the Truth in G-d’s word knows this is beyond question. Your suggestion that I have infiltrated is fallacious. You have not heard of “God fearers”? If you understand higher criticism, you might agree with the overall concern for valid hermeneutics. People can read Stern’s work and decide on their own. I convert no one. This is G-d’s domain alone. Faithful reading of Scripture is part of this as noted in the first psalm. Now, if I didn’t have “guts,” I would have left “Pastor” off of the post. So, you have erred again. Muslims have major problems. This is well known. I deal with Islam constantly. I have noted that some of them have better ears than you….  Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 11/28/11 at 10:00 am

It is beyond dispute that Christianity contains a lot of Jewish stuff, much of it unrecognizable to both Jews and gentiles as filtered through Roman and other later lenses. A scholarly Jewish perspective would provide a badly needed reality check in this regard, particularly since every Christian movement and offshoot attempts to laim greater authenticiy and attachment to Jewish origins.

Of course the limitiation on the ‘Jewish roots’ approach inevitably founders on those deal-breakers which have not changed since the first century, but as long as the discussion is confined to the New Testament nobody needs to get upset.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 11/28/11 at 11:18 am

Damned right this is personal, “pastor”.  I despise your 2,000 year history of trying to convert Jews to Christianity.  Your cult (you are to Judaism as Mormonism is to Christianity) has caused the death of millions of Jews.  And you have the audacity to come here and try to promote Christianity and Messianic “Jews”. You are from a long line of anti - Jews - at times you and your ilk have used Murder, at times Social Pressure, at times Slimy words of “Love” - but the bottom line of all you and yours tactics is to steal Jewish souls.  You, the Nazis, the Popes who promoted murder of Jews during the crusades, the Orthodox Christians who used pogroms to kill Jews, Martin Luther King who used the most blood lust inducing language about the Jews, all had one goal - to eradicate Jews and Judaism, either by murder or conversion.

Comment by george on 11/28/11 at 12:26 pm

Thank you, Ben. You are absolutely right. Both Jews & Gentiles need to be educated, since much has been culturized. Rome and others are responsible, having affected the thinking and interpretation of far too many. The Scriptures themselves speak loudly, proclaiming Truth, if we would read it. Psalm 19 offers evidence of this, and more prominently, Psalm 119. It is unfortunate that much animosity remains on the side of Judaism and Christianity. There is correction needed for both. When voices rail—and do not reason with G-d—as expressed in Isiah 1:18, then hostile reaction occurs which closes all dialogue. No one will ever eradicate Jews or Judaism. We can listen to other folks speak and they will tell us who they are: “out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.” Have a great day, Ben!!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 11/28/11 at 3:59 pm

...

George, as a Messianic Jew, I equally thought of Davif H. Stern’s translation. I am open about my faith, but not here to proselytize; so if you want to disagree that the historical Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, that’s your schtick. However, please respect Jews and gentiles who believe in a historical Jewish figure as the Jewish Messiah.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/08/11 at 5:24 pm

Pastor Phil, Dr. Levine actually said reading the New Testament affects her to be a better Jew. So, whatever criticism there is may merely come from a “I don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah perse” perspective. As for the Magi, my understanding is that the Magi (per the “magos” footnote) were probably merely astronomers or astrologers who had an ‘Ein Dor-type experience and converted to merely astronomy.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/08/11 at 5:29 pm

Pastor Phil, Stern’s “Jewish”(Messianic/Christian)New Testament “translation”,is described by Stern himself as a work with “cosmetic” changes,such as avoiding the use of biblical Greek proper nouns in order to replace them with transliterated Hebrew words.In addition,his book calls “law” “Torah legalism”, etc. That’s NOT intellectually honest translating;it sounds more like re-wording.The Jewish Annotated New Testament is a book of essays written to explore the ancient Jewish cultures that produced the concepts/ideas that are contained in Greek biblical texts. It’s an attempt to allow readers to gain perspective on how two very different religions share some scriptures, but, obviously, not all scriptures.It also illustrates how Greek culture melded its own beliefs and practices with these concepts, leading to pagan interpolation.  The NRSV (as ecumenical a translation as Christianity has thus far been able to produce)is used to source Greek scripture.Any Christian who wants to “follow” honestly whatever Jesus may have been teaching should ignore the fantasies of the likes of Tolkein and Lewis, and, instead, study 1st Century CE Jewish philosophy and history. Current Christianity developed from “church fathers” parallel to current Judaism growing from teachings of rabbis and sages. Early Church writings are often the polar opposites of Judaism in their obsessive hatred of humanity and attempts to transcend life mystically; they are far, far removed from the scriptures of which they claim secret and exclusive knowledge.

Comment by Shani on 12/08/11 at 9:40 pm

Gaining more insight into the development of Greek scriptures can be interesting for Christian people, and possibly, it might enrich their beliefs.Jewish perspective undoubtedly can shed insight into some passages and concepts that Christians admit they don’t understand. Regardless of the blights of history, (not to mention how awful it would be to repeat them),and the differences in Jewish and Christian texts/worldviews, both Hebrew and Greek scriptures could best serve any human belief system with their humanity-preserving messages, and their insistence that all of creation is important. All can hope to be good once more.

Comment by Shani on 12/08/11 at 10:02 pm

...

The Levite Line, I find said that you no longer consider yourself a Jew. As you and I, being Jewish believers, well know, most of our people are in a time where the veil has yet to be lifted and where Moshe is not understood because of the unlifted veil. Don’t let the Antimissionaries and other Non-Messianic Jews who are intolerant of Messianic Jews and Biblical Christianity get to you.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/10/11 at 12:02 pm

Thank you, Shani and others for your comments. This post has become more than interesting. David Stern’s work is a viable tool to help readers become more comfortable with the New testament. Other translations may also help, but his notes contain elements from Judaism which are lacking in many other works. It is a reasonable help, since it is not essays about the Scripture; it is Scripture plus notes/comments. Philosophy has it s place, as do the efforts of other literary notables (you mention C.S. Lewis). The 1st century Jewish philosophers have their points, but like the Christian writers then and later, they fall short of the text itself. The Scripture states itself to be what is of primary importance (as in Psalm 1; Psalm 119, etc.). There is no substitute for what Moses set in writing or the prophets who followed. If we spent more time just pondering their words (i.e., Isaiah 1:18), then many of the difficulties we face at the moment would recede. Too many of us see through a glass dimly. As once said, “It is amazing how much light the Bible sheds on the commentaries.” Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 12/10/11 at 4:17 pm

Pastor Phil, Levine & Brettler’s book does contain the the Greek Bible in the NRSV translation, with ample commentary. I did not meant to sound dismissive entirely of Lewis, etc. but I have encountered many Christian scholars who form their understanding of Christian text through philosophers who neatly fit their concepts of Christianity into their ancestral mythologies. Everything become King Arthur, and heroes, and the return of the king.They tended to ignore or disparage Jewish historical viewpoints, making even detailed translations linguistically inaccurate. Cultural connotation is often impossible to communicate with translation.From what I can tell, Levine & Brettler are fair in their publications.Of course, “pondering” scripture is worthwhile, but it can also be the straight route to seeing through a glass darkly (through a personal lens).Scholars are trying to move beyond the 19th century European approach to biblical studies. Seriously, Pastor Phil,you cannot think it’s easy for Jews to pick up the Christian Bible at all, let alone be “comfortable” with a translation. Personally, without scholars like Levine, attempting, out of curiously, to read the Greek scriptures has been bad for my blood pressure.

Comment by Shani on 12/10/11 at 5:40 pm

Shani, for very-well-done studies from a Jewish viewpoint on the inherently-Jewish nature of Christianity and aspects thereof, I suggest that you check out the website for K’lal Yeshu’at Yisra’el (in English, Congregation Yeshuat Yisrael)in Franklin, Tennessee. Also closely read Dr. David Stern’s translation more thoroughly. The NRSV is a Roman Catholic translation and does no good. Versions like the CJB and NKJV (which I use) deliberately retain the Jewish context of the original-language Tanakh and B’rit Chadashah.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/10/11 at 6:48 pm

Thank you Nickidewbear, I will certainly look into your suggestions for my reading! Back to the original topic, I believe Dr. Stern’s contributions to learning within the scholarly community of biblical studies are valuable.I’m not familiar with his “New Testament”,but, unlike Pastor Phil, I don’t believe it should be read “instead” of this work by Levine and Brettler. (Read them both - why not?) The NRSV was commissioned by the National Council of Churches, and it is deliberately ecumenical.My Rabbi has it on the shelf in her office. There is a Catholic Vulgate edition, but it’s not used by Levine & Brettler in their Annotated Jewish NT. The New Oxford Annotated Bible NRSV (regular edition) has major contributions from Marc Zvi Brettler and Amy-Jill Levine. For studies,I use the JPS TANAKH, edited by Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler and JPS Hebrew-English.

Comment by Shani on 12/10/11 at 7:33 pm

...

The Levite Line, you claim (among other allegations), “[W]hen people tell them what they don’t like or hate about them they just call people names.  Ie. Anti-Semite.” This is not true of all (fellow) Jews, Messianic and Non Messianic. In fact, for example, I believe that Philista (based on Tanakh) still has an existing people (the Palestinians)and that the “wodka” ad with “Hanukkah pricing” was calling us Jews “generous”, not “cheap”.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/11/11 at 9:38 pm

...

Hi, Shani: Thank you for your comments. You are right. I do not think it is easy for Jews to pick up the “Christian Bible.” This is why I commented the way I did. But, please remember that it is not easy for a Gentile or a “christian” either. Most have been raised in or affected by the culture which is at large anti-G-d. The popular culture would like to remove the shadow of Truth from the Judeo-Christian influence. The Scriptures, whether the Tanakh or the N.T., are an offense to them. The result is that many folks have only a passing knowledge of what the Bible really says and then have the nerve to use it against us by saying, “judge not,” etc. I am a strong advocate of Bible reading. Too many people do not have time for that, which means they have no time for G-d. This is the whole problem. I do not favor the tweaked scholarship or the popular nonsense that has found a home in much of “christianity.” It merely continues the deception that it is another life choice, just a different moral platform. The scriptures go beyond that, especially as found in Isaiah’s writing as he warned us about being so far from G-d. Jeremiah, too, well documented the conditions in his day which face us at the present hour. We do not need added “oomments” from some expert to see that. The Scripture itself is very clear. This, again, is why the reading and “reasoning” with G-d are so important. All of the prophets tells us we have forgotten G-d. My message is simple: come back. As He said, “return to me; return to me even now”! Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 12/12/11 at 7:02 pm

Pastor Phil, I’ve gained perspective on this issue. Thank you.I’ve often wondered if observant Christians are ever uncomfortable with their own scripture, because I’ve heard verses that are so exclusionary. I read your initial comment here as a cagey attempt at missionizing,and I apologize to you for my insinuation. Very narrow-minded of me, to say the least. Some of my (mis?)understanding of Christianity has emerged from media depiction (often caricature), and that’s unfair of me, and, quite frankly, ignorant. Perhaps that’s why the works of scholars like Levine are appealing to me.I know G_d never left us, and never will! Shalom shalom.

Comment by Shani on 12/13/11 at 3:29 pm

Shani; while G-d will never leave or forsake ‘Am Yisra’el, a couple of the “exclusionary” points are important to raise: 1) Jews must either be shomrim-kol hamitzvot or accept hachen b’Yeshua. 2) Ru’ach HaKodesh will not dwell with bnei-‘Adam forever, as noted in Beresheet. 3) Conditions—be they mitzvot v’b'rit milah, or rachamim v’chen—have always applied to be m’Yisra’el. So, there are discomforts in Judaism (including Messianic Judaism) that are worth thinking about.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/13/11 at 5:44 pm

Nickidewbear, are you being ironic? If not, your comment shows perfect examples of the type of assertions that inspired Levine & Brettler to investigate the Greek texts, and provide context and broader perspective.

Comment by Shani on 12/13/11 at 8:53 pm

Shani, both the Hebrew and Greek texts say & imply that, as I said: 1) Jews must either be shomrim-kol hamitzvot or accept hachen b’Yeshua. 2) Ru’ach HaKodesh will not dwell with bnei-‘Adam forever, as noted in Beresheet. 3) Conditions—be they mitzvot v’b’rit milah, or rachamim v’chen—have always applied to be m’Yisra’el. So, there are discomforts in Judaism (including Messianic Judaism) that are worth thinking about.

So, I’m just asking you to consider what I say. I’m not proselytizing, just giving you what the texts themselves in their own contexts say.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/14/11 at 6:31 am

...

This is really b’nefesh l’Hanukkah, ishim… lo!

Comment by Nicole Czarnecki on 12/17/11 at 4:34 pm

...

theleviteline wrote:“However, I do not respect you ugly 4-eyed, blue-eyed, obese, scrawny, bald-headed, physically and mentally diseased people enough to seek your approval.” and “Hence I don’t wait for the Jewish egomanical leaders to do anything but mislead, misinform and misguide.  How else could 6 million end up in gas chambers?” etc.

Why is this anti-semitic vitriol tolerated at The JEWISH Journal?

Comment by JustDroppedBy on 12/19/11 at 3:25 pm

JustDroppedBy, I have no idea. But the “Jewish Journal” is going el She’ol fastly.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/19/11 at 3:27 pm

Why do we Jews need to learn about a fairy tale book about a person that there is no historical proof ever even existed?

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/20/11 at 10:25 am

In response to JustDroppedBy I guess his philosophy and the many like him, is to suppress harsh critical words.  This way when you end up burned alive or gassed to death or whatever lovely end will be next for the Jews, you can be as clueless as your forebears.  Maybe this way it hurts less and it’s over quickly.  Unless you survive years in a concentration camp.  Of course having 1.5 million of your children gassed and burned alive, oh well just another blip on the screen. 

It would be laughable except I KNOW that folks like JustDroppedBy are and have been listened to and voices like mine are labelled and dismissed.  However the possibility that I’d been categorized with and stuck anywhere with the many creeps like JustDroppedBy is unfathomable and unacceptable to me.

The continued and willful ignorance of the story of Jesus, a Jew, by the Jewish masses is just one of the many inexcusable if not most inexcusable aspects of Jewish life.  Mr. Kratt seems to echo this attitude, first with the “we Jews” and referring to the Jesus story as a fairy tale.  Why should the Moses story be any less of a fairytale then?  However I do NOT wish to debate with these completely closed minded and willfully ignorant people at all.

As Jesus might have said, ‘Happy Hanukkah’ (see John 10:22-23).

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/20/11 at 11:56 am

Oy vey!!! Why the hate?  I stumbled upon the Jewish Journal website and this blog posting when doing a google search for all things Hannukah in LA.  I am absolutely mortified by some of these comments.  I come from one Jewish parent, one Christian parent and I embrace and respect both religions.  George, in particular - are you outta your mind?  I pity your twisted sense of reality.
I am so regretful that I even read these comments, they’ve ruined my day!!!
Why can’t we all just get along?

Comment by Assilem Berg on 12/20/11 at 12:14 pm

Adam Kratt, Jesus of Nazareth did exist.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/20/11 at 12:54 pm

@ Nickidewbear, There is NO historical evidence that a Jesus of Nazareth. ALL evidence points that the city of Nazareth did not even exist until the 1st century after the alleged time that Jesus supposedly existed. There is NO mention of any Jesus of Nazareth in Roman, Jewish or Greek documents of the time. The ONLY evidence of Jesus are books (Christian Bible) which was written between 300 and 400 years after his supposedly lived.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/20/11 at 9:22 pm

Happy Hanukkah to all.
Where did any commenter say that Jews don’t learn from Christians? (An accusation made here?) The comments are in response to an article about a Jewish publication by scholars who have dedicated their careers to learning about a foreign religion. Clearly, their intent was “to learn”...and to teach. Where is the “willful ignorance”? Why would anyone “willfully” ignored even read this article?  Answer: No one “willfully” would. Did the accuser READ the article? How can no one else have reacted to the horrible name calling?  “Brain dead”? “Twisted Ashkenazi way?” “ugly 4-eyed, blue-eyed, obese, scrawny, bald-headed, physically and mentally diseased people”??
Why does a White Supremacist get to spew his hate and insanely rant, and no one else has called him on it, or moderated??

Comment by JustDroppedBy on 12/20/11 at 9:50 pm

leviteline wrote the following quotes: “The physical ugliness of so many Orthodox Jews is a reflection of their inner ugliness, I have concluded.”
“I’ve joined the other side and I’ll depend upon them to protect me from the likes of you horrible excuses for human life, most of you Orthodox creeps.”
“To read the Torah (5 written books of Moses) and the prophets and not even question, never mind answer and comprehend who Israel is, is again completely inexcusable.  God damn you for this and I believe He has and will continue to do so.  I hope He does, you deserve it.”

Members of Hate Groups should NOT be given voice or attention in this publication. No one needs the abuse, and it doesn’t deserve attention.  Readers can drop by because something interesting caught their eye, and then read such hottible comments and feel polluted.  It’s horribly depressing, and the threat of hate crimes hangs over our heads continually.  This poster isn’t kidding around - he’s making vicious accusations because the world isn’t what he thinks he wants to it be. I sincerely hope this publication is keeping record of these insults and degrading, hateful comments.

Comment by JustDroppedBy on 12/21/11 at 1:05 am

The only reason for a Jew to read the fantasy comic book called the “new testament” is to disprove it. I would suggest that any Jew who reads about the sorcery and corruptions written about in the Christian text that they become proficient in and knowledgeable regarding their mistranslated verses. There are several Jewish websites that are dedicated to countering the missionaries. All Jews should be prepared to show How the “new” testament is easily debunked and is based on lies and mistranslations of Tanach

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 6:24 am

Adam Kratt, mashpikh. This is not an Antimissionary nor proselytization website.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/21/11 at 12:59 pm

This is a Jewish website for Jews. Christians should be responding and posting their foreign pagan ideas.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 3:30 pm

@ theleviteline: I have read your website. Your ignorance on the subject is evident. First off the Levites are not Aaronic priests. While the priests do come from the tribe of Levi, not all Levites (Levyim) are priests. Only the direct decedents of Aaron are priests and are called Kohaynim. I also read your founders Bio. It is obvious he had mental disorders.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 3:41 pm

I’m asking the Jewish Journal to not welcome Adam Kratt or theleviteline.com here anymore.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/21/11 at 4:29 pm

What did Adam Kratt do that was dangerous or inappropriate?

Nickidewbear, I can’t believe you would find something offensive in Adam Kratt’s posts, but you’ve written nothing about the vile, offensive, cruel name-calling by the poster that wouldn’t know a Levite if one fell out of the sky and squished him!

Comment by Shani on 12/21/11 at 4:56 pm

@ Nickidewbear: Really? You are asking the Jewish Journal to ban me, a Jew, for expressing Jewish ideals because you, a gentile, are offended?

@ Shani: Thank you, while I understand that views I express aren’t the most politically correct. We as Jews need to stand up and defend our faith and our Torah.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 6:22 pm

Shani, I asked that theleviteline.com be not welcome here anymore and I told him that he’s still a Jew even if he’d like to pretend differently. Also, I asked if the “Jewish Journal” is going downhill because they allow comments like his. Adam, the point of this blog isn’t Antimissionarism. And Shani, you know as well as I do (and I sadly had to clarify in another post) that I am not here to proselytize or convert but only to disclose that I am Messianic before I get persecuted for such and accused of proselytization.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/21/11 at 6:46 pm